HIGHLA-L Digest - 2 Oct 2002 (#2002-167)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:00:08 -0400
There are 18 messages totalling 743 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now) (6)
2. Well & truly a slash thing now (3)
3. SLASH/discussions (3)
4. Methos typical male (2)
5. Emotional Intensity (2)
6. How long...
7. Emotional Intensity (Buffy Spoiler)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 20:12:48 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now)
>(Slash is probably a covert form of the dreaded MS.)
>
> Wendy(Slash and Mary Sue in the same post.)(Go me!)
<g> That's always been something I've garnered from
what slash I've read and seen written. Especially when
Methos or Duncan are portrayed acting completely
out of character.
My best RL friend has always been a "slasher" and she
once admitted that she liked slash because she could
never *see* herself as a MS - because she had such a
poor self image. The woman in a het story always turned
into a rival, in her mind. (and she says that to her, slash
has ALWAYS been about sex, even when there is no
sex as such in the story)
Since she got married and had children, she's written
a lot of het stories and a LOT of gen (both something she
would =never= do before) ..... but her slash has moved
onto "m-preg" (male pregnancy stories)...... I suspect
she's now trying to get *revenge* on men (in virtuality)
for her own pregnancy <g>.
Jette
(aka Vinyaduriel)
"Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://bosslady.tripod.com/fanfic.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 20:14:42 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now)
> And although a writer could certainly try to write Methos as a typical guy
> who sits around and drinks lots of beer and watches sports on tv and
grunts
> in answer to questions, it wouldn't be very interesting or compelling to
> watch or read about. Might be more realistic. But who would care?
Is that how a *typical* male behaves??? I guess I haven't
met any *typical* males. Met lots of men though.
Jette
(aka Vinyaduriel)
"Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://bosslady.tripod.com/fanfic.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:21:48 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
me--
> >Hmmm. Envision a MALE fan fic writer writing the most extreme & explicit
> >slash, w/ Amanda & Cassie in the starring roles. Is that "valid
> >interpretation"? Or sexist, exploitative & abusive?
Marina--
> I think it's a valid interpretation. They can write whatever they
> feel like. I wouldn't read it, though, and I wouldn't throw a
> hissy fit and try to get them to stop writing it either.
No one says people can't _write_ whatever floats their boat. It's the
advertising, distribution, & sale of fanfic (including slash, some of which
is pornography) that is at issue.
And, I do think it's time for a reality check. In the past few days, we've
had folks here touting their own "award-winning fanfiction" (OK--she was
just plain funny, but still), people being referred to as "fan fiction
authors," & even people calling themselves "publishers of fan fiction."
Fans who write & distribute stories based on existing fictional universes
are stealing others' copyrighted intellectual property. It's both lazy &
dishonest. The only reason they get away w/ it is that TPTB generally
(despite the grandiose visions the "authors" & "publishers" have of
themselves) find them to be too insignificant to bother with.
me--
> >How in the world can you teach kids to be proud of who they are,
> >when you also manipulate kids' minds on something as delicate as
> >their understanding of sexual orientation, just to keep classroom
> >order?
Marina--
> I certainly never said there was anything *wrong* with it. (I don't
> think there is.) I also make comments if a boy and girl have their
> arms around each other. They take it the way it is meant, which is
> a joking way of getting their attention back to the class
Please. You wrote--
>>>Well... sometimes. I've even made remarks to the kids I teach when
they are hanging onto each other or something. "Do you really want
to be holding his hand? People might get the wrong idea." >>>
What exactly do you mean by "the wrong idea"? Can you be _sure_ about what
they _think_ you mean? Why add _that_ sort confusion & menace--that
innocent contact can give people "the wrong idea" about them--to a kid's
life? I'd vastly prefer my kid be sent to the principal's office or
otherwise disciplined for misbehaving, rather than someone--ANYONE--playing
mind games w/ her sexuality.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
Save Farscape http://farscape.wdsection.com/index.php Frell Sci Fi, just on
principle.
Feed an animal in need
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/CTDSites.woa
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:32:41 -0400
From: KLZ3 <KZIMMERMAN3@cox.net>
Subject: SLASH/discussions
>
> Gay, yes. Bi, yes. Straight...I'd say ultra-rare. It's one thing to read fiction
> which happens to contain gay characters, but I'm not sure I know any completely
> *straight* people who'd actively seek out slash fanfic of their own sex?
Does this apply to women as well as men?
I still disagree with Marina - I guess I think of slash as
stories that are written primarily for same-sex - um - sex, with
or without a plot to drive the story. I've read stories with gay
characters :::: waving at Jen :::: that mention sex, and even
have the characters in bed, but don't have explicit descriptions
of sex and the relationship is subordinate to the story. I don't
consider them slash.
I have a number of extremely conservative relatives who, it
seems, have gotten to the point of wanting to know how a person
has sex as the first thing. I just don't think it's necessary;
it's more information than I want to know. I have friends who
are almost certainly gay; it just has never come up in
conversation. All I've ever known about Annie and Leah are that
they do 'Zines', draw neat cartoons, and post a lot on Highla-L,
almost always with something solid to contribute to a discussion,
and sometimes they fight with people (not a judgment, who am I to
judge?).
What's my point? Damned if I know. :)
ZK
kzimmerman3@cox.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:33:36 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now)
In a message dated 10/2/02 3:14:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jette@blueyonder.co.uk writes:
<<
Is that how a *typical* male behaves??? I guess I haven't
met any *typical* males. Met lots of men though. >>
Well, I've met lots of "typical males," in contrast, obviously. Lots of them.
Annie
"Unless the last two years have been a wacky, wacky dream, I am a member of
SG-1." -- Dr. Daniel Jackson
****************
Save Daniel Jackson: http://www.savedanieljackson.com
Ashton Press: http://ashtonpress.net/
Fan Fiction: http://fanfic.ashtonpress.net/
Fanzines: http://fanzines.ashtonpress.net/
Gateway, A Stargate Slash Discussion/Fiction Group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gateway/join
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:42:32 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: SLASH/discussions
In a message dated 10/2/02 3:35:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
KZIMMERMAN3@cox.net writes:
<< I have a number of extremely conservative relatives who, it
seems, have gotten to the point of wanting to know how a person
has sex as the first thing. I just don't think it's necessary;
it's more information than I want to know. I have friends who
are almost certainly gay; it just has never come up in
conversation. All I've ever known about Annie and Leah are that
they do 'Zines', draw neat cartoons, and post a lot on Highla-L,
almost always with something solid to contribute to a discussion,
and sometimes they fight with people (not a judgment, who am I to
judge?). >>
Thanks, ZK. I think.
My point of view would be that folks on this list and just about any list I
have ever belonged to certainly feel free to talk about or mention their
husbands. Or their male significant others (boyfriends). Or their girlfriends
if they are male. Or their wives. They do it with casual abandon and no one
blinks an eye. Certainly no one accuses them of having said something
untoward or too private or of having revealed intimate details of their sex
lives. Why should it be verboten to me to mention my significant other who
happens to be the same sex? I did not and have *never* said a word publically
about anything that happens between us in private. Just that we are a couple.
And yet there are those who seem to think that Leah and I should not speak
about this. We have been together for over 13 very wonderful years. I'm not
ashamed of my significant other and I'll be damned if I'm going to be a party
to my own discrimination.
Annie
"Unless the last two years have been a wacky, wacky dream, I am a member of
SG-1." -- Dr. Daniel Jackson
****************
Save Daniel Jackson: http://www.savedanieljackson.com
Ashton Press: http://ashtonpress.net/
Fan Fiction: http://fanfic.ashtonpress.net/
Fanzines: http://fanzines.ashtonpress.net/
Gateway, A Stargate Slash Discussion/Fiction Group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gateway/join
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 20:38:24 +0100
From: beccaelizabeth <r.day@netcom.co.uk>
Subject: Methos typical male
Ashton7@aol.com wrote:
> And although a writer could certainly try to write
>Methos as a typical guy
> who sits around and drinks lots of beer and watches
>sports on tv and grunts
> in answer to questions, it wouldn't be very interesting
>or compelling to watch or read about.
>Might be more realistic.
One out of three, maybe two. Beer, yes. Since the dawn of time.
Sport, possibly. Though I secretly hope he see it as fairly pointless. Not
talking? Methos? Around strangers, maybe, outside possibility, as protective
camouflage. Around people who know him- he has a story to go with *everything*.
Usually on the theme of been there done that invented the t shirt. Any canon
scene where he sat around and grunted?
beccaelizabeth
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4212
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 20:39:49 +0100
From: beccaelizabeth <r.day@netcom.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity
> Liser
> (who thinks there is probably something to the whole slash as a
> covert Mary Sue thing)
wondering how that fits with the whole sub genre of mary sue who exists
only to get the guys into bed. with each other. and not her at all.
some slash is Mary Sue, some slash is a desperate attempt to avoid a
Mary Sue or OFC. Some is neither.
jjswbt@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
> Marina:
> >The issues that an m/m couple have to deal with are not the
> >same as an m/f couple. And that gives rise to a different set
> >of emotional dynamics.
> I might agree with this *if* I ever saw the characters deal
>with these issues.
Its at the heart of a *lot* of the slash I have read. I'm never sure if
it okay to mention specific authors in these discussions but in HL and
in the Stargate slash I'm currently addicted to there are whole series
that deal.
Also in Sentinel. I cant think of a fandom I've read that doesnt have
tons of plot heavy angst epics and/or comedies on the whole 'gay' issue.
Like one stargate slash I read this week had a big section about trying
to figure out what exactly constitutes a date when its between two guys,
and how exactly it differs from going for steak every other week since
forever, and it managed to be hilarious. Even without mentioning
gaybashing or the whole self image crisis thing, gay issues. and at the
same time exploring another theme that writers can explore in slash,
that is the increasing social confusion due to the way all the rules
have gone out the window these days, especially about dating. No more
carefully managed courtship, now the endless fun of trying to figure out
if in fact you are dating at all.
> >But I think the fact that
> >it's two males of the species *is* different. Hopefully, if
> >the writer does the job properly, they actually act like men
> >(and that's quite difficult). It will just be different because
> >the way men react to romantic/sexual relationships *is*
> >different.
>
> Hmmmmm......most writers never seem to manage the
>"have them act like men" part.
most writers are of average skill (by definition). A few are truly
spectacular.
I read one Stargate J/D recently that had me laughing sooo hard- there
was this whole section where Jack thinks about how he's had to train
Daniel in what is acceptable behaviour for a guy- like you dont argue
about what the guy on TV is saying, or go back to your flat to get a
book to prove that you are right and he is wrong to your friends, who
dont care anyway. This is only acceptable behaviour when its about
important things, like sports. (It funny in the long version not my
summary).
Some of the good stuff has the guys being so male you could scream (and
not the good way).
but obviously it is difficult for a female writer to do. Like writing
about aliens is difficult, they dont think like we do, let alone act the
same. (Mind you I find bloke thought processes actually easier to
follow than women's ones, but that a whole other conversation about the
whole oops wrong planet thing).
It difficult with some guys to get them to say anything at all through
the whole story. Like Chris Golden was saying about how he volunteered
to write an Oz book for Buffy- then he realised he just asked to do X
thousand words about a guy who never speaks. It makes the writers job
waaaay more difficult. so some writers just, erm, cheat. and make the
guys talkative anyway. Sometimes under the influence of Quickenings,
alcohol and/or alien technology. Its part of the whole appeal of
hurt/comfort- put the guys in an extreme enough situation that they
might, maybe, say stuff to each other. Or of course they might be
Jack. storytelling hard.
beccaelizabeth
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4212
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:58:28 -0400
From: SenseiRob@aol.com
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Pat wrote:
> Would you consider it "outing" yourself to admit in a non-HL forum that you
> love a show where people are regularly beheaded? There are people who
> find that as perverse as you appear to find slash. It's a question of
> perspective.
I have no problem admitting that I'm a "Highlander" fan. Let's see, the past year or so has been dominated by movies involving:
1. A man who becomes genetically mutated by a spider and becomes a superhero.
2. A young boy who learns he has magical powers and attends a school for witchcraft and wizardry.
3. Short furry people, wizards, elves and dwarves who try to destroy a magic ring.
4. The fifth installment of a somewhat declining space opera saga.
Admitting that my favorite movie involves the trials of being an Immortal and a battle for supremacy among them isn't anything earth-shattering.
Saying you like reading and/or writing stories about various hobbits, Ron & Harry, or a couple of Jedis having sex is, imho, inappropriate in an open and public forum, just the same as any other open declarations of sexuality. ("And I should care because...?").
> >(Envision someone holding up a copy of <choices not limited to Playboy,
> >Playgirl, Playdude, Swank, Hustler> at a news stand and declaring publicly
> >that they like <any combination of physical attributes or activities>).
>
> I'd use the rl equivalent of the delete key. I'd walk away. I also do
> that when accosted by religious types declaring their beliefs, which I find
> equally offensive.
You can unhear something by walking away?
See, I can understand slashers having an irresistible urge to imagine/perceive something in a movie (or whatever) - and even talk about it to their like-minded friends. But I see it happening all over the place on the 'net, such as in fandom bulletin boards, Lists, and manymany unrestricted websites. It's the compulsion to publicly declare sexuality (including preferences for sexual reading materials), that I find inappropriate. Several more people have declared their like/support (onlist) of slash since my last post. Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that the only people to "out" themselves are slashers? I think it's a weird phenomenon, to say the least.
Now if I came out (::snerk::) and said that I had certain sexual interests - and related them to Highlander, somehow, to stay topical - people would undoubtedly chant TMI! TMI! (I'd hope so at least. =:-O ). But somehow, slash is sacred and inviolate to the idea of good taste (there's an oxymoron in there somewhere) and somehow it's become omnipresent in fandom. I, for one, do mind that slashers don't respect other fans enough to restrict themselves to more appropriate forums than, well, anywhere they want.
> >(He'll know all about Highla-L from us, and even wear the shirts, but he
> >won't experience it firsthand) (A shame, considering his own existence is
> >completely rooted in Highlander fandom)
>
> A shame? Highla has always been an adult forum, not
> appropriate for
> children.
But it's not adult in that it's ADULT: only 18 and older can subscribe, age verification is required (21 in some states, illegal in others, check your local statutes). It's adult in that there have been some really great, mature discussions here. On the other hand, a lot of childish stuff has happened here as well. Still, this isn't under any stretch of the imagination an age-restricted forum, where people could perhaps be welcome in discussions of their own sexual proclivities. For that matter, the Internet itself isn't age-restricted; there's just the assumption that parents should restrict its access to their children, and that's become the de-facto standard.
There was a mature 14 year old female onlist, who's all grown up now and in college. Imagine the scenario of a slash discussion like we've had here, face-to-face, in public with the "wrong" people around (Police, Child Protective Services, those FBI Internet guys that hunt for predators). An adult with an underage girl - or boy. What circumstances is it OK in again? (BTW, there was discussion on another list about her age and appropriateness and they worked on a solution).
Then again, there was a 17-18 year old male bunny here that could set any discussion of age, maturity, and appropriateness on its ear. (::sings Anya's "Bunnies" song from OMTWF, BTVS to himself::).
So that's my POV. YMMV. Thank you for your support, and all that.
-Rob (sometimes martyr of the ancient, surviving male Geezers)
SenseiRob@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:09:13 -0400
From: KLZ3 <KZIMMERMAN3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: How long...
Ecolia Shrugged:
> *shrugs and tells honest truth* A suicidal disinterest and lack of concern for the feelings of others. Giving back what has been given to me all my life is, according to my shrink, very freeing.
Hmmmmm...can I interpret that as an insult against people who go
to shrinks?
> And it certainly livened up the list. <vbg>
>
Actually, the list was happily livened up before. Now, it's
gotten a fractious element to the discussion. (Oh, it would have
happened anyway, but it hadn't yet. I think people have just
been happy to be discussing again) Of course, it brings back
fond memories of Enji-Bay... :::: sniffling ::::
> The rest of us on digest will simply have to look at the comments to see if there really is a Santa Claus in there somewhere.
>
You could do what l*g*n ::: shudder ::: used to do: do a keyword
search of the digest to see if his name appeared anywhere (He
did! He said so onlist! I'm not making it up! <g>)
> I admit to being extremely flip, but I did not "demand" anyone *do* anything.
No, you asked politely.
> I insulted no one personally. I insulted a THREAD.
Yes, actually you did insult people. I'm looking at your post
dated 9/30/02 09:54:43, subject "how long...".
You were not making insulting suggestions to people who were not
involved in the discussion; you were making insulting suggestions
to people involved in the discussion. That means identifiable
people.
>And while you may not have liked it, I have every right to voice my boredom at the rote drill as loudly as others voice their opinions.
Not to the point of flames. And it's considered Not Nice to
complain about a legitimate subject for discussion.
:::: donning broad-brimmed hat, veil, white gloves, linen dress,
and heaving Emily Post book in Ecolia's general direction ::::
ZK
kzimmerman3@cox.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:18:42 -0400
From: KLZ3 <KZIMMERMAN3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now)
> preferring Jack and Daniel purely as friends. I didn't read any of the
> >slash. After awhile, I decided I wanted more emotional intensity and I started
> >>reading the slash.
::::: brain shorts out at thought of Jack/Daniel slash :::::
I can't see it. Daniel, possibly, as part of a "When in Rome"
thing, but Jack? :::: blue smoke pours out of back of computer
::::
I can more easily see Duncan, Methos, and Joe in a threesome.
:::: cable modem explodes ::::
ZK
kzimmerman3@cox.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:37:25 -0400
From: KLZ3 <KZIMMERMAN3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: SLASH/discussions
I've apologized to Annie off-list for seeming to imply something
that I did not intend to. I meant no offense.
:::: madly digging through community college catalog for "How to
Express Yourself Without Making an A$$ Of Yourself" courses ::::
ZK
kzimmerman3@cox.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:12:42 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Methos typical male
In a message dated 10/2/02 3:52:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
r.day@netcom.co.uk writes:
<< Any canon
scene where he sat around and grunted? >>
Of course not. That was my point, after all. That that kind of scenario isn't
something you're going to normally see on TV or in a movie or in a book
because it's, well, boring.
Annie
"Unless the last two years have been a wacky, wacky dream, I am a member of
SG-1." -- Dr. Daniel Jackson
****************
Save Daniel Jackson: http://www.savedanieljackson.com
Ashton Press: http://ashtonpress.net/
Fan Fiction: http://fanfic.ashtonpress.net/
Fanzines: http://fanzines.ashtonpress.net/
Gateway, A Stargate Slash Discussion/Fiction Group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gateway/join
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:19:23 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
In a message dated 10/2/02 4:00:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SenseiRob@aol.com writes:
<< Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that the only people to "out" themselves
are slashers? I think it's a weird phenomenon, to say the least. >>
I don't find it anymore odd than you admitting that you have a child and that
you are married. Weren't you just talking about that very thing recently? By
admitting that you have a child, weren't you talking about your sex life? I
mean, that's a bit blatant out here on a public list, don't you think?
Admitting that you had sex with someone?
Honestly. Why do you find it anymore "odd" that someone who is bisexual
and/or homosexual should just SAY so than you do to discuss your own family?
Have there been discussions of intimate details on this list? (I don't think
so, but I don't read every post.) Have there been pornographic details given?
Tell me. Why do you think it's okay to talk about your spouse and your child
(and by inference your sex life) but it's not okay for me to simply mention
mine?
Annie
"Unless the last two years have been a wacky, wacky dream, I am a member of
SG-1." -- Dr. Daniel Jackson
****************
Save Daniel Jackson: http://www.savedanieljackson.com
Ashton Press: http://ashtonpress.net/
Fan Fiction: http://fanfic.ashtonpress.net/
Fanzines: http://fanzines.ashtonpress.net/
Gateway, A Stargate Slash Discussion/Fiction Group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gateway/join
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:24:05 -0400
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity (Buffy Spoiler)
In a message dated Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:06:56 +0200, tmar@sifl.iid.co.za writes:
> :) I haven't written anything about them; they're just my favourite
> pairing in Buffy fanfic. And I also know that there's no chance
> of that happening on screen, so I can enjoy the fanfic
> without
> worrying that something on the show is going to contradict
> something in a story, or being angry at the characters for
> being with other people.
Did you catch last night's episode of the show? A new character is getting a rather unusual introduction to the 'scoobies' and she finally wails in frustration "Are there any people here who haven't slept together?!" There's a lightning-fast 'take' as Xander and Spike meet each other's gaze and both hastily look away. Pricelessly funny.
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:24:38 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now)
In a message dated 10/2/02 4:21:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
KZIMMERMAN3@cox.net writes:
<< ::::: brain shorts out at thought of Jack/Daniel slash :::::
I can't see it. Daniel, possibly, as part of a "When in Rome"
thing, but Jack? :::: blue smoke pours out of back of computer >>
LOL. That's sort of the way Leah sees it, I think. For a long time, I just
thought Jack looked on Daniel as too much of a younger brother or even a son
substitute. But after I found out Daniel was leaving the show... I don't
know. I just got to liking the slash and now I like it best.
With Methos and Duncan... I could buy into it if the story was good. But I
still think it was highly unlikely. Don't know why. Duncan and Richie or
Methos and Richie... never saw it. I tried reading some and some of the
stories were well written but I just couldn't see it. Not because I can't
believe Richie would "do that." But just because, again, I think Methos and
Duncan would look on him as too much of a "son."
Annie
"But as for Sam and Jack we did establish the feelings, but given they're in
the military, and how we've already addressed this, we won't be having any
further relationship moments in future episodes." -- Hank Cohen, July 2002
****************
Save Daniel Jackson: http://www.savedanieljackson.com
Ashton Press: http://ashtonpress.net/
Fan Fiction: http://fanfic.ashtonpress.net/
Fanzines: http://fanzines.ashtonpress.net/
Gateway, A Stargate Slash Discussion/Fiction Group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gateway/join
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:38:22 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now)
----- Original Message -----
From: "KLZ3" <KZIMMERMAN3@COX.NET>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now)
> > preferring Jack and Daniel purely as friends. I didn't read any of the
> > >slash. After awhile, I decided I wanted more emotional intensity and I
started
> > >>reading the slash.
>
> ::::: brain shorts out at thought of Jack/Daniel slash :::::
>
> I can't see it. Daniel, possibly, as part of a "When in Rome"
> thing, but Jack? :::: blue smoke pours out of back of computer
> ::::
I know, I know - the more obvious pairing is Jack/Teal'c
;-)
Jette (not a Slasher)
(aka Vinyaduriel)
"Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://bosslady.tripod.com/fanfic.html
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Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:44:16 -0400
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity
I said:
><< Too often m/m character sound like the conversations women have in
>their heads that they *wish* they could have with the men in their lives. >>
Annie replies:
>I think this is certainly true, to a great extent. But then literature
>and/or the media tends to be full of conversations that are probably too deep or
>too perfect or to, well, *long* for real life. How else to portray what is
>happening? What people are thinking? What they are feeling? It's a function
>of storytelling.
Agreed - to some degree. I love West Wing ... love Aaron Sorkin ... love the dialog he writes. But I don't think the dialog is "realistic". And I understand that a written story will generally need more dialog than a film version of the same plot - since one can't get any visual clues to emotions by watching the actors' faces or posture.
That said, I still think that a lot of slash fails for the reason that the characters don't "sound" like themselves. First one has to accept that the characters are doing things they don't do on-screen..and then one has to accept that they suddenly speak differently as well. And the way they most often speak is as if they suddenly became terribly chatty, terribly in-touch-with-their-feelings women. <G>
>And although a writer could certainly try to write Methos as a typical guy
>who sits around and drinks lots of beer and watches sports on tv and grunts
>in answer to questions, it wouldn't be very interesting or compelling to
>watch or read about. Might be more realistic. But who would care?
But...if one writes of a Methos who talks out his feelings, jumps into action to save the day, tells long stories about the good old days, and sleeps with men....is it still Methos? At some point, all one has is a character with the *name* Methos and none of the qualities that made him *Methos*.
Wendy("What do you like about him?")("He has that Methosian quality.")
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 2 Oct 2002 (#2002-167)
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