HIGHLA-L Digest - 2 Oct 2002 to 3 Oct 2002 (#2002-168)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:00:01 -0400
There are 7 messages totalling 366 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Well & truly a slash thing now (5)
2. Well & truly a slash thing now OT Marina's stories
3. HIGHLA-L Digest - 2 Oct 2002 (#2002-167)
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Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:44:46 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Rob--
> Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that the only people to "out" themselves
> are slashers? I think it's a weird phenomenon, to say the least. >>
Annie--
> Tell me. Why do you think it's okay to talk about your spouse and your
child
> (and by inference your sex life) but it's not okay for me to simply
mention
> mine?
I'm not Rob, but I'll answer anyway, this being a _list_ discussion & all.
Big difference, & rather basic. Kids do NOT equal sex. Also, sex does NOT
equal kids (not even for heterosexuals, except for Doc Anne). Mentioning
one has a child is not at all the same thing as repeatedly informing a list
of several hundred people of your sexual preference, as though they should
care or as if it gives one a leg up (pardon the image) on a discussion.
>And we now resume our years-long policy of not responding to one individual
on this list.
The plural is rather intriguing, isn't it? Catly prerogative? Royal?
Editorial? No--just that of a nose-out-of-joint self-avowed pagan &
bisexual who reads, writes and publishes fan fiction.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
Save Farscape http://farscape.wdsection.com/index.php
Frell Sci Fi, just on principle.
Feed an animal in need w/ a free click
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/CTDSites.woa
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Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 18:01:05 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Wendy --
> >(The "slash discussion" has been around since before 1995.)(It will be
> >around as long as there are lonely single women willing to write it
> >and read it.)(:::::::::::::::::::evil cackle::::::::)
Cackling aside, there is a theory (I don't take credit for it, by the way)
that het females who end up slashing the sexy male characters they adored
onscreen may be doing it as a defense mechanism. Rather than seeing these
attractive guys as males they cannot have for whatever reason (from being
respectable married ladies to being socially inept), they slash
them--turning them into gay men who have an excellent reason (aside from
being fictional) to be uninterested in the het female writers--a reason
_other than_ rejecting them personally. The characters are gay & thus
"safe." The het women writers can, if so inclined, even punish the
characters for rejection dealt them by other (& presumably real) men by
putting them through everything from emotional misery to gory rape.
Marina--
> Seriously, from my observations there are as many married women
> writing slash as there are "lonely single women".
Married women are as likely to be lonely, in the sense applicable here, as
single women.
> It's difficult to pigeonhole fans of any kind
True. As I said, the above isn't MY theory, though I lean towards it
because it does explain something that has long puzzled me--that it's the
sexy-to-women guys who get slashed the most. Also, the writer's presence is
groaningly obvious in a Mary Sue story; to me, the het female writer's
marked physical _absence_ in m/m slash stories is rather telling. When a
woman writes m/m sex scenes she is violating fiction's 1st rule-write about
what you know--& that oddity of slash IS explained by the above theory. It
also explains the more violent & abusive slash that's out there.
Personally, I think one major key to slash is its attention-grabbing,
daring, & easy-to-make-a-mark-on-the-fictional-universe nature; slash is
probably impossible for the young, the naïve, & those new to the charms of
the internet to resist trying-reading, writing, whatever--but they/we often
seem to get over it & move on. I'd also prefer to think that people-even
genre fans--are mostly self-aware & emotionally strong, as opposed to
needing such a defense mechanism (& implementing it largely w/o being aware
of it, as this theory implies). In that sense, it reminds me of Leah/Annie
grandly asserting here in another discussion that many of Cassie's
detractors were sexually jealous of her & so ripped her apart because she
slept w/ both Methos & Duncan, rather than disliking the character for the
stated rational reasons. Though I've heard very little rational defense of
slash here, I imagine the theory is insulting to some. I'm also sure it
does not apply to ALL slashers. But it may be a partial answer to the slash
phenomenon, for those still looking.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
Save Farscape http://farscape.wdsection.com/index.php
Frell Sci Fi, just on principle.
Feed an animal in need w/ a free click
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/CTDSites.woa
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Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:03:20 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Nina wrote:
>Though I've heard very little rational defense of
>slash here, I imagine the theory is insulting to some. I'm also sure it
>does not apply to ALL slashers. But it may be a partial answer to the slash
>phenomenon, for those still looking.
I've heard many and varying theories about why people like slash,
and I don't really like any of them. I prefer my own, simpler
theory, which is that slash generally happens in shows in which
decent female characters are scarce. I do have a couple of essays
on this, but I'm not going to "advertise" them.
>Can you be _sure_ about what they _think_ you mean? Why add _that_
>sort confusion & menace--that innocent contact can give people "the
>wrong idea" about them--to a kid's life? I'd vastly prefer my kid
>be sent to the principal's office or otherwise disciplined for
>misbehaving, rather than someone--ANYONE--playing mind games w/ her
>sexuality.
Please. They know exactly when I'm joking, and some of them then
play up to it on purpose, as if to say, "If we *were* gay, we
wouldn't care". Which is really the response a person hopes for.
This tells me that they *aren't* hung up about gay people, which
is important.
- Marina.
\\ "You've heard it said that living well is ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// the best revenge? Au contraire - living || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ forever is the best revenge." - Lacroix ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//=====Marina Bailey====tmar@sifl.iid.co.za====|| \\
\\=============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie============//
Me: I think Lex is in love with Clark.
Child (thinking): Well... maybe.
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Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:53:22 -0700
From: Danni Butterfuss <dbutter@wvi.com>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now OT Marina's stories
:::::::::: poke's head out again in less than a week::::::::::: there
goes my lurker status:::::::
Om, er Miss Marina.... I would love to read one of your story's again.
Haven't read much passed "Romona Quimby.........what ever school reading
book" this last month. School has started here again, and DeeDee is in
4th level this yr. Could you send me a copy of yours? I thought them
very thought provoking. I need, need some 'big ppl' reading.
Thanks
Danni
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Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:05:01 -0400
From: Ace!Miracle <ke731458@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
On Wed, 2 Oct 2002 SenseiRob@aol.com wrote:
> See, I can understand slashers having an irresistible urge to
> imagine/perceive something in a movie (or whatever) - and even talk
> about it to their like-minded friends. But I see it happening all over
> the place on the 'net, such as in fandom bulletin boards, Lists, and
> manymany unrestricted websites. It's the compulsion to publicly declare
You bring up a good point. Another list I'm on is a general fandom
discussion list, and everyone is supposedly over 18. (I think the
list goddesses have done as much in their power to ensure that.) Also, any
post where slash is discussed--in more than a one-line, offhanded, joking
way--must be clearly labelled as such. This way, anyone who doesn't want
in on the discussion can avoid it easily.
The right to unfettered discussion doesn't supercede the rights of those
who don't want to discuss. It should be a lot easier to avoid than it's
become. This is not an objection to the idea of slash (although, I'm
sorry, but there are some pairings out there that are just *wrong*) but
just a questioning to the pervasiveness.
> Imagine the scenario of a slash discussion like we've had here,
> face-to-face, in public with the "wrong" people around (Police,
If we weren't talking about the issue of slash in fandom, and were instead
talking about stories in detail, imagine the FBI pedophile-catching squad
stumbling upon it. Poor Debbie would be hauled off faster than you could
say "Connor MacLeod of the clan MacLeod." We'd all have to sell our season
1 tapes to raise bail. And take out a third mortgage on the Old Geezers'
Home. (Hm, maybe zK can sell boxes of "PoRA Cookies.") (Slogan: "Get 'em
while they're fresh!")
--Miracle
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Day 9: Typical. Gandalf knows how I hate drop-ins. Wanted to yap on about
the Ring...Showed him my Wizard Wrestling Federation moves. Have delivered
smackdown. Go me." --Very Secret Diary of Saruman the White
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Minor Major Miracle: Time Lady, Jedi Knight, Occasional Grad Student
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Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:51:42 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Marina--
> I've heard many and varying theories about why people like slash,
> and I don't really like any of them. I prefer my own, simpler
> theory, which is that slash generally happens in shows in which
> decent female characters are scarce.
Hmmm. Isn't HL considered right up there for slash-worthiness? HL had
loads of female characters. Though I can't know for sure what you mean by
"decent," I'd be surprised if Tessa didn't qualify--a female lead in season
1 & early season 2. And, if you mean strong & fascinating female
characters, then add Amanda, Rebecca, Ceirdwyn, Gina, Rachel, Katya, Kate, &
many others. If you include bizarro, add Grace, Kristin & Cassie (& a
couple of the spin girls). And Doc Anne was at least around (for far too
long). Richie had his girlies, as did Methos & Joe. It's not like the HL
guys were _ever_ starved for female affection. So, your theory doesn't
explain anything about Hl slash for me.
> Please. They know exactly when I'm joking, and some of them then
> play up to it on purpose, as if to say, "If we *were* gay, we
> wouldn't care". Which is really the response a person hopes for.
> This tells me that they *aren't* hung up about gay people, which
> is important.
I am still surpprised you, as a teacher, _make_ it an issue, let alone using
it, as you said, to keep your students in line. And it's interesting that
I'm the one suggesting kids shouldn't be pressured on the basis of sexual
orientation by authority figures, even as a joke.
Nina (blasted dockworkers; how much toilet paper, kitty food/litter/CatSip,
Balance bars, & Kraft mac & cheese is "enough"?)
mac.westie@verizon.net
Save Farscape http://farscape.wdsection.com/index.php
Frell Sci Fi, just on principle.
Feed an animal in need w/ a free click
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/CTDSites.woa
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 04:53:26 -0500
From: Ecolea <ecolea@wt.net>
Subject: Re: HIGHLA-L Digest - 2 Oct 2002 (#2002-167)
> Ecolea shrugged:
KZ asks:
>
> Hmmmmm...can I interpret that as an insult against people who go
> to shrinks?
You are free to interpret any *thing* any *way* you want -- as long as you
comprehend the self-deprecating humor of my original statement. I really
was, and am, being honest. Except about the shrugging part. That I made up.
> Actually, the list was happily livened up before. Now, it's
> gotten a fractious element to the discussion. (Oh, it would have
> happened anyway, but it hadn't yet.)
Then I'm pleased I could help. Fractious or not, lively or not, there is a
certain amount of necessary passion involved in being creative. Pain and
laughter are the soul of any writer's craft. Rote and dogma, the bane.
>
> > I insulted no one personally. I insulted a THREAD.
>
> Yes, actually you did insult people. I'm looking at your post
> dated 9/30/02 09:54:43, subject "how long...".
>
you were making insulting suggestions
> to people involved in the discussion. That means identifiable
> people.
*You* may perceive my "suggestions" as "insulting", I'd call them theraputic
and *g* pleasurably entertaining.
And a *personal* attack against two *groups* of "people"? The logic of that
escapes me. I named no names and wasn't interested in identifying the
participants of the discussion in question. If you want to make a list, go
for it. I'm personally not inclined to do so at this time. Nor would I ever.
As I said, my comments were mainly directed toward the thread being
discussed. And, it is my experience, though perhaps not yours, that people,
in general, have to be discussing something in order for there to be a
discussion.
> it's considered Not Nice to
> complain about a legitimate subject for discussion.
I never said it *wasn't* a legitimate subject for discussion. I merely said
I was tired of wading through a rehash of every "whom to slash, why to
slash or why not to slash" discussion that's ever been had.
> :::: donning broad-brimmed hat, veil, white gloves, linen dress, and
heaving Emily Post book in Ecolia's general direction ::::
:::: Ecolea (who agrees with Ms. Post that deliberately mispelling names is
juvenile behavior) dons a fall suit of dusty rose, is well aware that veils
and gloves are worn only for weddings and funerals -- unless one is
attending a formal function such as High Tea with a member of the
aristocracy, and kindly directs KZ to Ms. Manners, who agrees with Emily
that, "white is simply *not done* after labor day, dear." ::::
Best regards,
Ecolea
I seized the day and it screamed -- then I killed it.
http://web.wt.net/~ecolea/EclecticReadingRoom/
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 2 Oct 2002 to 3 Oct 2002 (#2002-168)
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