HIGHLA-L Digest - 1 Oct 2002 to 2 Oct 2002 - Special issue (#2002-166)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:05:50 -0400
There are 15 messages totalling 830 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now) (7)
2. Well & truly a slash thing now (6)
3. Bi-Monthly Reminder
4. How long...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 22:40:05 -0400
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now)
Annie wrote:
>>In other fandoms, I have liked the slash more. I started in Stargate
>fandom preferring Jack and Daniel purely as friends. I didn't read any of the
>slash. After awhile, I decided I wanted more emotional intensity and I started
>>reading the slash. Now I *prefer* the slash.
And earlier Marina said:
>I read it for the emotional intensity.
>Even if the story doesn't have a sex scene, the emotional
>intensity is not the same as the kind you'd find in a gen or
>het story. It just isn't.
Pat asks for elaboration:
>Several people have mentioned "emotional intensity" as one reason they
>like slash. Can you elaborate?
I second that query. If you can put it into words, could someone try to explain this? Why does Duncan/Methos have more emotional intensity than Duncan/Amanda? Same plot ... just substituting one old lover for another. Why does the m/m relationship seem more intensity to you (any "you" who cares to answer)?
Wendy(Can't imagine Jack/Daniel.)(Can imagine Jack Daniels)
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 20:41:27 -0700
From: Lynn Hocker <penumbra9star@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Hi there all --
I have been following this
thread with interest. What is
"Ship", "Shippers" or
"Shipping" fan fic? I don't
think I have heard of this one
before.
(I remember when I first heard
of Slash ... I thought it was
somehow related to swords ...
well I guess it is but I meant
the swords involved in
beheading). <EG>
Lynn~
http://www.home.earthlink.net/
~penumbra9star/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 06:49:49 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now)
Wendy asks:
>I second that query. If you can put it into words, could someone
>try to explain this? Why does Duncan/Methos have more emotional
>intensity than Duncan/Amanda? Same plot ... just substituting one
>old lover for another. Why does the m/m relationship seem more
>intensity to you
I don't think it has *more* per se, it's just very *different*.
The issues that an m/m couple have to deal with are not the
same as an m/f couple. And that gives rise to a different set
of emotional dynamics. Of course, for some slash there aren't
any "issues" - think Chakotay/Paris (maybe in the 24th century
people won't care about one's sexual preference) or Blake's 7
or a show set in a different time. But I think the fact that
it's two males of the species *is* different. Hopefully, if
the writer does the job properly, they actually act like men
(and that's quite difficult). It will just be different because
the way men react to romantic/sexual relationships *is*
different.
Lynn asks:
>What is "Ship", "Shippers" or "Shipping" fan fic? I don't
>think I have heard of this one before.
It's short for "relationshipping" and is just the name
given to heterosexual pairings, such as Duncan/Amanda,
Richie/Marina (come on, I had to do it!!), Methos/Alexa,
etc. I'm not really sure where it originated, but the
first time I ever saw it on the Net was in X-Files
fandom.
- Marina. (Who is a Buffy/Giles shipper.)
\\ "You can spend precious time marching in your prefect lines, //
// but I don't hear that drum; I'm looking for something \\
\\ else. And if you don't like what you see, you don't //
// have to look at me." - Melissa Etheridge \\
\\==========Marina Bailey==========tmar@sifl.iid.co.za==========//
//============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie===========\\
"Great. Now I'm a slash enabler." - Nina
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 23:50:02 -0500
From: Debra Douglass <ddoug@catrio.org>
Subject: Bi-Monthly Reminder
(updated 8/1/00) HIGHLA-L Bi-Monthly Reminders
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 01:32:28 -0400
From: Trilby <trilby23@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now)
Wendy:
> >I second that query. If you can put it into words, could someone
> >try to explain this? Why does Duncan/Methos have more emotional
> >intensity than Duncan/Amanda? Same plot ... just substituting one
> >old lover for another. Why does the m/m relationship seem more
> >intensity to you
Marina:
> I don't think it has *more* per se, it's just very *different*.
JMHO, but I think the Duncan/Methos relationship (sexual overtones or
not) is generally more interesting than the Duncan/Amanda
relationship. Methos is much more complex, darker, and much less
straightforward than Amanda; the interaction between Duncan and
Methos is more interesting to me than the interaction between Duncan
and Amanda.
That said, I prefer stories involving the trickier relationship (MHO)
of friends to that of lovers. I'm not especially interested in
Duncan and Methos (or Duncan and Amanda, or Amanda and Methos) as
lovers, unless the writer is very, very good. If the writer is
skilful enough, it doesn't matter to me who's paired up. I'll even
read a kissing story if it engages me. ;-)
Lynn:
> >What is "Ship", "Shippers" or "Shipping" fan fic? I don't
> >think I have heard of this one before.
Marina
> It's short for "relationshipping" and is just the name
> given to heterosexual pairings, such as Duncan/Amanda,
> Richie/Marina (come on, I had to do it!!), Methos/Alexa,
Given the intensity some "Shippers" feel about their favourite
pairing, I was under the impression that "Shippers" were as a rule
advocates of OTP (One True Pair)?
> etc. I'm not really sure where it originated, but the
> first time I ever saw it on the Net was in X-Files
> fandom.
Moi aussi.
> - Marina. (Who is a Buffy/Giles shipper.)
I'll have to seek out your website again, Marina. It's obviously
been far to long!
-------------------- Trilby
Live long and prosper. May the Force be with you.
Remember that the truth is out there ...
No matter where you go ... there you are ...
And he will find you ...
But in the end there can be only one.
Oh, boy.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 23:57:45 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Rob--
> I think slash writers should feel obligated, in a legal and moral sense,
to restrict their product to an appropriate audience.
I agree. In fact, beccaelizabeth recently mentioned TV restrictions as a
_reason_ slash works best in fan fiction, where the writer can slap an R
label on the raciest material & send it out via zines or the net. Fact
is--there's no way the writer after that has ANY control over who is reading
her work--could be a kid & my great-aunt Gracie, both of whom stumbled into
a HL site while looking for info on Scottish customs. Or it could be Peter
Wingfield & Val Pelka, both of whom were surprised to see their devoted fans
depicting Methos & Kronos spending so very much time on their knees.
>>> Instead, I see that slashers - writers and devotees alike - particularly
enjoy, well, bragging about their pornography, er, fanfic, all across
fandom, especially on the Internet. Does an attraction to slash, and that
"different" type of imagination, lead to an obsession with "outing"
themselves publicly and subjecting everyone else to information about the
genre? ... Remember that slash is inherently about sex. Is it appropriate
to publicly reveal your sexual inclinations, activities, and interests in an
open forum? >>>
We saw just that today, here on the list. While anyone bumping into Leah &
Annie on the net would soon know they were peas in a pod, list posts from
them today seemed intent on telling us exactly what they're doing in that
pod. Is this whistling in a graveyard, protesting too much? Or simple
self-absorption & lack of decency? While coming out of closets is all well
& good, must bedroom doors then be propped permanently open? I very much
doubt anyone would be interested in MY sex life--what makes _theirs_ an
appropriate topic?
> (Envision someone holding up a copy of <choices not limited to Playboy,
Playgirl, Playdude, Swank, Hustler
> at a news > stand and declaring publicly that they like <any combination
of physical attributes or activities>).
Hmmm. Envision a MALE fan fic writer writing the most extreme & explicit
slash, w/ Amanda & Cassie in the starring roles. Is that "valid
interpretation"? Or sexist, exploitative & abusive?
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
Save Farscape http://farscape.wdsection.com/index.php Frell Sci Fi, just on
principle.
Feed an animal in need
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/CTDSites.woa
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 00:14:58 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Marina--
> At
> school I teach the kids to be proud of who they are.
Not one but TWICE I ignored your mentioning in recent posts that you "saw"
slash in some behavior of your kids at school; despite realizing it was just
in your head, you called them on it, in order to get them to behave. (I'm
copying one of the previous posts below.)
How in the world can you teach kids to be proud of who they are, when you
also manipulate kids' minds on something as delicate as their understanding
of sexual orientation, just to keep classroom order?
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
Save Farscape http://farscape.wdsection.com/index.php Frell Sci Fi, just on
principle.
Feed an animal in need
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/CTDSites.woa
me before--
>Marina & other slash afficianados, could you please answer me this? When
>you are in the real world & see a couple hetero guy pals goofing around, do
>you ever have slash flashes similar to those you get while watching HL:TS?
>Like--2 buddies are working on the car, & one asks the other to pass him a
>wrench--do you ever hear something suggestive there?
Marina--
Well... sometimes. I've even made remarks to the kids I teach when
they are hanging onto each other or something. "Do you really want
to be holding his hand? People might get the wrong idea." They
usually let go pretty fast (accomplishing my goal - to get them
to let go and stand in the line or sit properly at the desk), but one
or two have joked about it and not cared. (Then I will have to say,
"Well, fine, but could you stand by yourselves now? We're waiting to
go in the class.")
me--
>do you think you are seeing subtext that's really there (the guys DO
>want each other sexually on some, even if unadmitted, level), or is it ONLY
>in your head? I'd really be interested in your thoughts on this.
Marina--
I think it's in my head, which is fine. :)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:45:28 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
In a message dated 10/1/02 7:47:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
plawson@webleyweb.com writes:
<< Generally speaking, does slash have more emotional intensity? If so, how,
or perhaps the question should be why? >>
I've sometimes seen slash 'first time' stories written with this intensity
because the author is making an effort to justify the force of emotional
circumstances that finally drive the two characters together.
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:17:04 -0400
From: L Cameron-Norfleet <cgliser@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
comet said:
>How very Yoda of you.
Take that as a compliment, I shall.
>
>But, it's also very true. Since I've known you though, you've had this
>study of slash going on. It's been interesting watching, not only for how
>you react but how others react as well.
Like Wendy, I'm trying to *get* it. I'm not sure that I ever will,
truly, but I do think that I'm a lot closer than I was five years
ago. Or even a year ago.
Liser
--
Lisa Cameron-Norfleet ** cgliser@earthlink.net
--
Guinness is my anti-drug. -Greg
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:56:58 -0400
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now)
I asks:
>>I second that query. If you can put it into words, could someone
>>try to explain this? Why does Duncan/Methos have more emotional
>>intensity than Duncan/Amanda? Same plot ... just substituting one
>>old lover for another. Why does the m/m relationship seem more
>>intensity to you
Marina can be counted on to answer:
>I don't think it has *more* per se, it's just very *different*.
>The issues that an m/m couple have to deal with are not the
>same as an m/f couple. And that gives rise to a different set
>of emotional dynamics.
I might agree with this *if* I ever saw the characters deal with these issues. Admittedly I haven't read vast numbers of slash stories, but I can't remember any at all where the issue of m/m relationships was addressed. There never seems to be any reluctance to be seen as "gay".... only the occasional reluctance to actually engage in m/m sex (and said reluctance is always overcome). Methos/Duncan don't get ostracized by their friends for their new and "different" relationship. No one ever gets run out of town for being queer. (Although I'd bet a lot of money that there is at least one story where poor, little, Richie gets gay-bashed and comes home all bloody and in need of comfort)(And lubricants<eg>)
>Of course, for some slash there aren't
>any "issues" - think Chakotay/Paris (maybe in the 24th century
>people won't care about one's sexual preference) or Blake's 7
>or a show set in a different time.
See? Most of the time there are no issues that are m/m specific.
>But I think the fact that
>it's two males of the species *is* different. Hopefully, if
>the writer does the job properly, they actually act like men
>(and that's quite difficult). It will just be different because
>the way men react to romantic/sexual relationships *is*
>different.
Hmmmmm......most writers never seem to manage the "have them act like men" part. One of the characters usually acts like a woman ...more often they both act and talk like women. Too often m/m character sound like the conversations women have in their heads that they *wish* they could have with the men in their lives. (This is not at all strange since most m/m slash is written by women who have no experience being men.)(We all write what we know and women know women.)(Slash is probably a covert form of the dreaded MS.)
Wendy(Slash and Mary Sue in the same post.)(Go me!)
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:01:00 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now)
In a message dated 10/2/02 9:57:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jjswbt@earthlink.net writes:
<< Too often m/m character sound like the conversations women have in their
heads that they *wish* they could have with the men in their lives. >>
I think this is certainly true, to a great extent. But then literature and/or
the media tends to be full of conversations that are probably too deep or too
perfect or to, well, *long* for real life. How else to portray what is
happening? What people are thinking? What they are feeling? It's a function
of storytelling.
And although a writer could certainly try to write Methos as a typical guy
who sits around and drinks lots of beer and watches sports on tv and grunts
in answer to questions, it wouldn't be very interesting or compelling to
watch or read about. Might be more realistic. But who would care?
Annie
"Jonass La Quinta es un el rat bastardo y muchisimo grande malo-bad asso. Y
he smiles too muy mucho. Es aggravatande big time." -- Pablo Picasso
****************
Save Daniel Jackson: http://www.savedanieljackson.com
Ashton Press: http://ashtonpress.net/
Fan Fiction: http://fanfic.ashtonpress.net/
Fanzines: http://fanzines.ashtonpress.net/
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gateway/join
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:24:48 -0500
From: Debra Douglass <ddoug@catrio.org>
Subject: Re: How long...
On 9/30/2002, on HIGHLA-L@lists.psu.edu, Ace!Miracle wrote:
>>> At 09:54 AM 09/30/2002 -0500, Ecolea wrote:
>>> >Either way, it will give the rest of us a break from the droning whine of
>>> >a conversation dating back to 1995!
>>
>>Dead equines anyone? Isn't the whole idea of discussing HL a dead horse?
>>Because as Sany points out:
>>
>>> Hmmm... last I checked this was email group devoted to a tv show whose last
>>> episode was filmed in 1997.
>>
>>Sandy again:
>>> The point is.... if the people on this list want to have this discussion
>>> (which seems quite evident to me)... then they should have this discussion;
>>
>>Remember the 12th Commandment: "Thou shalt use the delete key when thou
>>agreest not with the topic of discussion." And certainly in a more
>>intelligent manner than suggesting we all need to "get some batteries for
>>our vibrators." (I'm with Liser. I was quite insulted.)
And the 11th Commandment: If the current topic of discussion
displeases thou then start a NEW interesting one.
-Debbie (List Goddess) (why does someone have a hissy fit about the
list when I'm out of town unexpectedly or I'm having mail problems -
this time it was both) (I got a job!) (My 93-year-old grandmother is
doing much better after scaring us into doing a full-family-all-come
alert)
--
.------------------------------------------------------------------.
|Debra Douglass ddoug@catrio.org http://www.catrio.org|
`------------------------------------------------------------------'
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:31:04 -0400
From: L Cameron-Norfleet <cgliser@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now)
Wendy said:
>Hmmmmm......most writers never seem to manage the "have them act
>like men" part. One of the characters usually acts like a woman
>...more often they both act and talk like women.
I was recently following a discussion in another forum that called
this phenomena the "alienization of men" rather than the
"feminization" because, as the originator of the term pointed out,
*women* don't act like that either.
Liser
(who thinks there is probably something to the whole slash as a
covert Mary Sue thing)
--
Lisa Cameron-Norfleet ** cgliser@earthlink.net
--
Guinness is my anti-drug. -Greg
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Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 18:58:51 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Nina wrote:
>Hmmm. Envision a MALE fan fic writer writing the most extreme & explicit
>slash, w/ Amanda & Cassie in the starring roles. Is that "valid
>interpretation"? Or sexist, exploitative & abusive?
I think it's a valid interpretation. They can write whatever they
feel like. I wouldn't read it, though, and I wouldn't throw a
hissy fit and try to get them to stop writing it either.
>How in the world can you teach kids to be proud of who they are,
>when you also manipulate kids' minds on something as delicate as
>their understanding of sexual orientation, just to keep classroom
>order?
I certainly never said there was anything *wrong* with it. (I don't
think there is.) I also make comments if a boy and girl have their
arms around each other. They take it the way it is meant, which is
a joking way of getting their attention back to the class and away
from playtime (we call it "break"). They know damn well that there
will be no racist, sexist or homophobic language used in my class.
And if anyone is deeply concerned about teachers in this country
teaching that homosexuality is okay... read the S.A. Constitution.
We are *required* to do so.
- Marina.
\\ "You've heard it said that living well is ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// the best revenge? Au contraire - living || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ forever is the best revenge." - Lacroix ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//=====Marina Bailey====tmar@sifl.iid.co.za====|| \\
\\=============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie============//
"A starship also runs on loyalty to one man, and nothing can replace
it or him." - Spock to Kirk; TOS ("The Ultimate Computer")
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:06:56 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Emotional Intensity ( was Re: Well & truly a slash thing now)
Trilby wrote:
>Given the intensity some "Shippers" feel about their favourite
>pairing, I was under the impression that "Shippers" were as a rule
>advocates of OTP (One True Pair)?
I'm not too sure on that point, but I wouldn't be surprised.
But then, many slashers are advocates of OTP, except their
pairing just happens to be m/m. That said, slashers at least
know that there's no chance that "their" pairing will ever
get together on-screen. Shippers often spend years being
frustrated when TPTB for a particular show don't get "their"
pairing together. I was once involved with Picard/Crusher
(Beverly Crusher) fans and every time Beverly or Picard
dated or even looked at somebody else they would be up in
arms yelling about how Beverly was betraying Picard or
vice-versa. And what evidence did they really have? One
scene in the second episode and a comment here and there.
At least slashers don't have delusions (don't say a *word*,
Nina!!) that their pairing is *the* one on the show.
>>(Who is a Buffy/Giles shipper.)
>I'll have to seek out your website again, Marina. It's obviously
>been far to long!
:) I haven't written anything about them; they're just my favourite
pairing in Buffy fanfic. And I also know that there's no chance
of that happening on screen, so I can enjoy the fanfic without
worrying that something on the show is going to contradict
something in a story, or being angry at the characters for
being with other people.
- Marina.
\\ "You've heard it said that living well is ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// the best revenge? Au contraire - living || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ forever is the best revenge." - Lacroix ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//=====Marina Bailey====tmar@sifl.iid.co.za====|| \\
\\=============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie============//
"A starship also runs on loyalty to one man, and nothing can replace
it or him." - Spock to Kirk; TOS ("The Ultimate Computer")
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 1 Oct 2002 to 2 Oct 2002 - Special issue (#2002-166)
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