HIGHLA-L Digest - 10 Jul 2001 to 11 Jul 2001 - Special issue

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      --------
      There are 18 messages totalling 847 lines in this issue.
      
      Topics in this special issue:
      
        1. further OT..was    O/T: List mommy's e-mail address?
        2. Jim Byrnes Show
        3. ATTN: All Fan Fic writers (8)
        4. Berne Convention, Copyright, fair use and moral rights
        5. O/T: List mommies and Goddessnessnessnesses (2)
        6. Highla-L' has been around for how long?
        7. "Endgame" video question. (4)
      
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      
      Date:    Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:31:23 -0400
      From:    Julie Beamer <jbeamer@infi.net>
      Subject: Re: further OT..was    O/T: List mommy's e-mail address?
      
      Marina Bailey wrote:
      
      > I'm not sure how it got started, but many lists like to think of
      > themselves as "families", and the person in charge is thought of
      > as being the Listmom (or dad). I suppose, like actual parents,
      > they are expected to stop the listmembers (listsibs) from
      > fighting, kick off people for posting lies (like that Connor guy,
      > I've forgotten his name), keep threads from going too far off-
      > topic... kind like what parents do in real life.
      >
      > I personally think it's kinda silly. I have lots of friends on
      > various lists, but I doubt they'd take kindly to being referred to
      > as my "list siblings".
      
      A former list denizen had another term for us: "I've always thought of you as my
      imaginary friends."
      
      (That kind of ended the discussion at the time.) <bg>
      
      Julie
      Founding Geezer, etc.
      (who heads off to the Geezer Porch with zk and an armfull of calendars, wondering
      how they could have missed the Weazul's annual vacation and the list pool party.)
      
      --
      jbeamer@infi.net
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Tue, 10 Jul 2001 20:44:14 -0700
      From:    Sherry Kirkvold <kirkvold@islandnet.com>
      Subject: Re: Jim Byrnes Show
      
      Jim Byrnes plays live here in Victoria on Friday the 13th at the Ingy Pub!
      
      Cheers!
      Sherry
      
      Sherry Kirkvold
      kirkvold@islandnet.com
      
      Tideline Communications
      
      250-595-6753
      Victoria, B.C.
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 05:34:49 +0100
      From:    "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
      Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
      
      > John--
      > > Some writers write because...the alternative is unthinkable.
      >
      > Yes, but if what they write is fanfic, they have no right to distribute
      it.
      > To most professional writers, I would think that writing & distributing
      w/o
      > permission material based in a universe created by _other_ writers would
      be
      > truly unthinkable.
      
      As a professional writer I know full well that when I was younger and
      hopefully honing any talent I do have, then I was inspired by tv shows and
      probably put quill to parchment with ideas from that myself. I don't see
      anything wrong with that and I actually think it's a good way to learn how
      to write. Nor do I really have a problem with said writer/fan showing his
      friends what he has written. To be anti fanfic is absurd because it is
      natural response for anyone with an ounce of creativity to try. Artists
      draw, writer write etc etc.
      
      It's not playing in another person's toybox that I find unthinkable. What is
      surprising has been that some people's attitude is that getting access to
      the toybox in someone else's garden makes them think they have automatic
      right to do what they want there without reproach. It's like an old lady who
      doesn't really mind that the neighbourhood kids come and swim in her private
      lake. She has every right to stop them, but sees no need to do so unless
      they cause damage or ill-treat her property. Just because she's let people
      use the lake for years, doesn't mean the neighbourhood has a right to do
      whatever it wants. It's use has continued because of  a healthy respect of
      the usage from both sides.
      
      My only point has been to say that fanfic writers should play nicely and
      quietly and realise that their usually harmless hobby can take on more
      serious problems if it a) becomes widely orloudly distributed or b) tackles
      issues that the writer knows that people may find controversial whether said
      writer thinks they SHOULD be controversial is irrelevent, it's the effect
      not the cause)
      
      
      You can't stop fanfic and I don't believe that anyone should try. Most
      fanfic writers do so for their own pleasure, rather than making a (sometimes
      token) profit....but if a fanfic writer gets a little too uppity or
      up-their-own-arse about their rights or starts to make money, they have to
      be reminded where they legally stand and by whose pleasure they do so.
      
      John
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:00:37 -0700
      From:    Lynn <lloschin@sprynet.com>
      Subject: Re: Berne Convention, Copyright, fair use and moral rights
      
      From: "Dragon Lady" <dragonlady@darkmage.net>
      
      > (1) Independently of the author's economic rights, and even after
      the
      > transfer of the said rights, the author shall have the right to
      claim
      > authorship of the work and to object to any distortion, mutilation
      or other
      > modification of, or other derogatory action in relation to, the said
      work,
      > which would be prejudicial to his honor or reputation.
      
      Yes, that's in the Convention -- but the US has implemented this in a
      very limited way for works of fine art only.  Under US law, most
      treaties don't mean crap without domestic legislation to implement
      them.  Most do not have the power of law in and of themselves.  In
      legal parlance, they are not "self-executing."
      
      In the U.S., copyright is first and foremost an economic right, and
      must be because of the Constitution.
      
      Lynn
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:56:52 +0200
      From:    Marina Bailey <fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za>
      Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
      
      John wrote:
      >You can't stop fanfic and I don't believe that anyone should try. Most
      >fanfic writers do so for their own pleasure, rather than making a (sometimes
      >token) profit....but if a fanfic writer gets a little too uppity or
      >up-their-own-arse about their rights or starts to make money, they have to
      >be reminded where they legally stand and by whose pleasure they do so.
      
      Well, we seem to be agreed on that. :)
      
      I found an interesting post by someone on Fanfic & Copyright which
      people might find interesting. I'm not sure I would agree with
      what it says, but it's interesting nonetheless:
      http://www.geocities.com/cc_ssd/copyright.html
      
      Sorry about the 'Nita' thing, Nina. I know who you are, really.
      But come on - veiled insults? I would never do that. If I insulted
      you, you would know it. Kindergartens? Prisons? I think I should
      feel insulted, not you. Oh well. I'm glad we're not discussing
      it anymore. It was getting tiresome.
      
      - Marina.
      
      \\ "You can spend precious time marching in your   ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  //
      // perfect lines, but I don't hear that drum; I'm  || R I C H I E >>  \\
      \\  looking for something else. And if you don't   ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  //
      //like what you see, you don't have to look at me."||                 \\
      \\==fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za=Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==//
      
      "Cultural artifacts always come alive and take over the ship." - My
      brother, watching Star Trek Voyager.
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:51:37 -0400
      From:    Carmel Macpherson <Carmel@stuartfieldhouse.com>
      Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
      
      Hi all
      
      
      Nina: <<..To most professional writers, I would think that writing &
      distributing w/o permission material based in a universe created by _other_
      writers would be truly unthinkable....>>
      
      Gosh - does that mean that every article and novel and script based on the
      Bible, should never have been written because they are based on a universe
      created by, amongst others, Matthew, Mark et al????  Come to think of it, it
      would even mean that the Bible itself shouldn't have been written by those
      ancient fanfic writers, given that the concepts were not original!
      
      
      
      Nina: <<..So, where's the right to take someone else's intellectual property
      w/o permission & use it for your own purposes?  To not only write
      fanfic--fine--but to widely distribute it--not fine.  OTHER THAN--because
      you want to, & it's fun?...>>
      
      My my my...such moral outrage!  You'll forgive those of us who would prefer
      to allow the actual copyright owners to decide whether they are or are not
      outraged.  I don't recall Bill electing you as his spokesperson. He is very
      quick to act when he believes that someone has gone beyond the pale,- as
      with the web release of the script of Highlander 4.  D-P's lawyers were on
      to it in a flash.  Thus far he has not felt what you insist that he does, in
      terms of fanfic.  Indeed, if what you are expressing on his behalf were true
      then I wonder why D-P have as a part of the Official Highlander site a Board
      devoted solely to fanfic???  It's called 'Highlander Chain Stories' and is
      listed as: ""..The place for fans to collaborate on Highlander-themed
      stories. ..."
      
      But rest assured Nina that I have truly taken your views to heart re the
      evils of slash and was about to take myself off to Confession to desperately
      seek forgiveness and absolution for my stained and soiled soul but then I
      realised that I couldn't in conscience go and seek absolution in a universe
      created by another as this would only compound my wickedness and who knows
      what further sin I might fall into, being such a depraved and degraded heap
      of detritus.
      
      I'm glad that you've been able to give us all such a clear perspective now
      on where true evil resides - I *used* to think that there were worse things
      in the world than writers of slash but I see now that I was mistaken.  As
      Methos so incisively pointed out, "Hitler was just a poor boy whose mother
      didn't love him.." (or something similar).
      
      ...mea culpa...mea culpa...mea maxima culpa....of course, that Evil Duncan
      MacLeod has known of the state of my soul for quite some time and it just
      doesn't seem to matter how often I retreat to my prayer stool, those
      MacLeods just bring out the worst in me! Nina I truly need all the help I
      can get!
      
      All those fellow fanfic writers (and especially
      s:::s::::sla:::::slas::::nope - just can't bring myself to even type the
      word any more -my fingers started to wither...)are welcome to join me in
      communal choir singing at the url below:
      
      http://members.ozemail.com.au/~tunnack/edmfanfi.htm
      
      We shall begin at Vespers with 'Tales from the Prayer Stool 1' (or, 'EDM and
      *those* Rosary Beads')
      http://members.ozemail.com.au/~tunnack/edmpray1.htm
      
      
      Can I stop beating my breast now...I'm beginning to cough...and EDM doesn't
      like it....
      
      p.s.  The Evil Duncan Corp is having a week devoted to Erotica.  Pagan said:
      <<...His UnHoliness, for no other reason than He's unholy and likes to stir
      up trouble, has decided to name this coming week "Shrine Erotic Week" and
      demands that we all write romantic, sexy, steamy or downright raunchy
      stories about His magnificent prowess in bed.  (Or out of it for that
      matter!)  He's even commissioned me to make a Celtic mirror adorned with His
      exquisite face at the moment of ecstasy to be gifted to the author of the
      most drool-inducing short story as an enticement....  (See attached scan)
      ...>>
      
      
      Sigh...there is just no hope for we our little band of happy, cheerful
      fanfic writers...damned, damned and doubly damned........well at least it's
      het....then again, that Evil Methos is a law unto himself and never ever
      obeys Pagan's instructions!!!  I saw him just the other day surreptitiously
      watching EDM ...
      
      
      
      Kind regards
      
                @  Carmel Macpherson:
      <<<@{}=================>>>      Chief EDFWs
               @   carmel@hldu.org
      
      http://www.carmelmacpherson.com/
      
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Highlander DownUnder: The Official HL Fan Club of Australia
      PO Box 198, Brisbane Albert St QLD 4002,  Australia.
      OR, for US members, make out checks to Fran and send $US25 to:  Fran Koerner
       P. O. Box 3565, Palos Verdes, CA  90274
      Visit the HLDU club site: http://www.hldu.org
      
      ***HLDU5.  May 2003.  Brisbane***
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:13:49 +0200
      From:    Marina Bailey <fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za>
      Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
      
      Carmel wrote:
      >Sigh...there is just no hope for we our little band of happy, cheerful
      >fanfic writers...damned, damned and doubly damned........
      
      Don't worry, Carmel, when they lock us all up in that prison for
      kindergarteners (or is that the kindergarten for prisoners), we
      can share a cell and go right on being evil and depraved, even
      if we have to write our evil, evil, bad, bad fanfic on the walls!
      We'll use charcoal if we have to. Nothing will stop us! (Cue
      maniacal laughter.)
      
      - Marina, glad for some perspective from Carmel.
      
      \\ "You can spend precious time marching in your   ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  //
      // perfect lines, but I don't hear that drum; I'm  || R I C H I E >>  \\
      \\  looking for something else. And if you don't   ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  //
      //like what you see, you don't have to look at me."||                 \\
      \\==fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za=Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==//
      
      "I'm sick of Napoleon XIV, I'm sick of Blue, I'm sick of Tentacle
      Boy, and guess what? I'm sick of you!" - John to Aeryn, Farscape
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:32:51 -0400
      From:    KLZ <zklee@patriot.net>
      Subject: O/T: List mommies and Goddessnessnessnesses
      
      Marina's brandishing her flagpole ;-D:
      >
      > >I personally think it's kinda silly. I have lots of friends on
      > >various lists, but I doubt they'd take kindly to being referred to
      > >as my "list siblings". And the term "listmom" seems to me to be
      > >very condescending. I prefer Debbie's term, List Goddessnessness.
      > >:)
      >
      
      Sandy's doing a "me too" post!  Sandy's doing a "me too" post!
      
      > Me too.  I was once on a list that had a List Mom.  She treated everyone
      > like babies, wouldn't allow any controversial discussion (this was a
      > LaFemme Nikita list), no discussion about the sexual tension that was very
      > evident between the two main characters, she spoke to everyone as if they
      > were 4 years old, and her list eventually blew up (with the help of a
      > couple of internet geezers <eg>).
      
      I *can't* imagine *WHO*! ;-D
      
      >
      > I like our ListGoddessnessnessness much better.  She runs a list for
      > adults. I dare say this list is at its best when there is controversial
      > discussion and good intelligent debate. Debbie only jumps in when it's
      > absolutely necessary... and then she wields her whip with pure expertise. <g>
      >
      
      Hail O List Goddessnessnessness, Three-Armed One, Brandisher of
      Whips, Whapper of Those Who Do Not Use Spoiler Spaces!
      
      I think that identification of the list owner is both a response
      to the tone of the list, and also helps to set the tone of the
      list.  I haven't been on *that* many lists, but the ones with
      List Mommies tend to be - um - how to put it politely - they tend
      to have a lot more rules and monitoring of tone.  Lists with a
      "List Owner" tend to be less personal; more mature.  You find
      that a lot on professional lists.  I know of only two lists that
      refer to the list owner as "List Goddess".  One is moderated for
      good reason, but the parameters of what you can and can't do are
      clearly defined, there for all to read, and are appropriate to
      the nature of the forum.  The other one is Highla-L.
      
      This was my first experience with an e-mail list and maybe I got
      spoiled.  List Goddesses seem to define pretty clearly what is
      unacceptable, but once that's defined, they have a hands-off
      approach to how people post.  In turn, the list members take on
      <deity>-like attributes.  Opinions are stronger, tone is sharper,
      and discussion goes much deeper than any other list that I've
      encountered. I think it's more interesting that way.  If the Tone
      Police were monitoring posts, we'd never have the experience of
      seeing what other people really think, why they think it, and
      when a discussion between several strong personalities will start
      to turn into the prelude to the inevitable argument.   If we had
      someone constantly sending back messages for "tone", we'd miss
      getting to know some pretty neat people.  The down side is that
      it makes it difficult for PoRA(tm) to overcome the shock of
      encountering people who discuss to the point of argument, and
      explains why certain  - um - topics come up every few months.
      
      I also think that the earliest days of this list, with Founding
      Geezers like Julie and Claire and Wendy, and beloved
      personalities like Kip  :::: bowing head in rememberance ::::,
      set the foundation for discussion here.  It's been diluted
      somewhat, simply because HL is over, but I think the foundation
      is still there.  Where else could you find a Sally Struthers
      infomercial and cows in trenchcoats trying to steal Monique's
      quote database? <g>
      
      Of course, then, there's "List Tyrants". <g>
      
      For PoRA(tm), the "Three-Armed One" refers to l*g*n's *shudder*
      visual image of Debbie as a three-armed Goddess.  One arm holds a
      sword, one holds a whip, and one holds a keyboard.  The whips,
      btw, are literal.  I have pictures.  I also have a picture of the
      List Weezul eating a cookie.
      
      ZK  (What other list has both a List Weasel and a List
      Unny-Bay?)(Q: Why did the HL chicken cross the road? A: He was
      the last of the coop of Al-Deneb)
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:37:13 -0400
      From:    KLZ <zklee@patriot.net>
      Subject: Re: Highla-L' has been around for how long?
      
      >
      >
      > Ahhhh, memories. I remember well the damp, pink newbie I was and being silly
      > enough to get into a debate of some sort with one of the geezers.  LOL! and I
      > thought I was a true "fan" - I learned fast though I think. :)  So, how can
      > we find out how long we've been members of the list?
      
      Hah.  WHippersnappers.  Why, in *MY* day, I came on the List and
      started a roll call.  So did Liser.  Mine was red hair.  Liser's
      was who was scottish.
      
      I vaguely remember your early days; don't remember the geezer or
      the argument, though.  Debating with a geezer didn't make blue
      smoke come out of the back of your 'puter, now, did it? <g>
      
      
      ZK (If Duncan were a fruit...)
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 21:26:08 +0200
      From:    Marina Bailey <fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za>
      Subject: Re: O/T: List mommies and Goddessnessnessnesses
      
      I don't think this is off-topic... HL is in here!!
      
      ZK wrote:
      >>[Sandy] Me too.  I was once on a list that had a List Mom.  She treated
      >>everyone like babies,
      >I *can't* imagine *WHO*! ;-D
      
      Okay, who??
      
      >I haven't been on *that* many lists, but the ones with
      >List Mommies tend to be - um - how to put it politely - they tend
      >to have a lot more rules and monitoring of tone.
      
      And more attention to petty little details
      
      >List Goddesses seem to define pretty clearly what is
      >unacceptable, but once that's defined, they have a hands-off
      >approach to how people post.  In turn, the list members take on
      ><deity>-like attributes.  Opinions are stronger, tone is sharper,
      >and discussion goes much deeper than any other list that I've
      >encountered. I think it's more interesting that way.
      
      Oh, definitely. Not to mention that a person actually learns
      things. Whether it's about Scotland, how scripts are written,
      not to piss off the Weasel... it's a learning experience. And
      that can never be a bad thing.
      
      >The down side is that
      >it makes it difficult for PoRA(tm) to overcome the shock of
      >encountering people who discuss to the point of argument, and
      >explains why certain  - um - topics come up every few months.
      
      And why we have a schedule. Who threw it off *this* time?? :)
      
      >I also think that the earliest days of this list, with Founding
      >Geezers like Julie and Claire and Wendy, and beloved
      >personalities like Kip  :::: bowing head in rememberance ::::,
      >set the foundation for discussion here.  It's been diluted
      >somewhat, simply because HL is over, but I think the foundation
      >is still there.  Where else could you find a Sally Struthers
      >infomercial and cows in trenchcoats trying to steal Monique's
      >quote database? <g>
      
      My favourite HL analogy was the Tidal Pool. And those pool
      parties when the Weasel was away were fun, too... :)
      
      I still miss Kip.
      
      >For PoRA(tm), the "Three-Armed One" refers to l*g*n's *shudder*
      >visual image of Debbie as a three-armed Goddess.
      
      Hey, what happened to l*g*n, anyway? And Danny??
      
      >Q: Why did the HL chicken cross the road? A: He was
      >the last of the coop of Al-Deneb)
      
      I love those!! I was actually looking through some old files
      and found a Forever Knight file in which listmembers from
      Forkni-L had written what FK would have been like if it had
      been written by other authors. Example: if it had been
      written by Paul Haggis (creator of Due South), Schanke would
      have been Italian, and from Chicago. Nick would have been a
      Mountie and gone everywhere followed by Perry, the vampire
      dog. Stuff like that. Anyone interested in trying that with
      Highlander??
      
      - Marina.
      
      \\ "You can spend precious time marching in your   ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  //
      // perfect lines, but I don't hear that drum; I'm  || R I C H I E >>  \\
      \\  looking for something else. And if you don't   ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  //
      //like what you see, you don't have to look at me."||                 \\
      \\==fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za=Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==//
      
      "I'm sick of Napoleon XIV, I'm sick of Blue, I'm sick of Tentacle
      Boy, and guess what? I'm sick of you!" - John to Aeryn, Farscape
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:38:26 -0700
      From:    Stephen Bryce <sibryce@yahoo.com>
      Subject: "Endgame" video question.
      
      I was looking for "Endgame" at one of my local video
      stores, the other day.  They had the DVD version, but
      when I'd asked about the VHS tape, the guy at the
      counter said that it wasn't available, as far as he
      knew.
      
      Does anyone know when it's going to be out for
      sell-through VHS?
      
      Stephen Bryce
      Author, "Highlander: The Legacy"
      
      =====
      
      
      __________________________________________________
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      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:26:12 EDT
      From:    Dotiran@aol.com
      Subject: Re: "Endgame" video question.
      
      In a message dated 7/11/2001 2:49:27 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
      sibryce@yahoo.com writes:
      
      
      > when I'd asked about the VHS tape, the guy at the
      > counter said that it wasn't available, as far as he
      > knew
      
      I got it at our local video store on vhs the week it came out, didn't own a
      dvd player.
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:36:09 -0700
      From:    Deborah Dunlap <zyg97m@yahoo.com>
      Subject: Re: "Endgame" video question.
      
      I got mine from Columbia House. Picked up the DVD used
      from Blockbuster. But no VHS there or at Wal-Mart or
      Sam's.
      
      Debbie D
      
      > sibryce@yahoo.com writes:
      > > when I'd asked about the VHS tape, the guy at the
      > > counter said that it wasn't available, as far as
      > he
      > > knew
      
      > --- Dotiran@aol.com wrote:
      > I got it at our local video store on vhs the week it
      > came out, didn't own a
      > dvd player.
      
      
      __________________________________________________
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      Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
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      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:52:35 -1000
      From:    Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
      Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
      
      Carmel--
      > Gosh - does that mean that every article and novel and script based on the
      > Bible, should never have been written because they are based on a universe
      > created by, amongst others, Matthew, Mark et al????
      SNIP
      > As
      > Methos so incisively pointed out, "Hitler was just a poor boy whose mother
      > didn't love him.." (or something similar).
      
      Ooh--the Bible AND Hitler in the same post--gotta be a record.... for
      excess.  Not very creative, though.
      
      
      > You'll forgive those of us who would prefer
      > to allow the actual copyright owners to decide whether they are or are not
      > outraged.  I don't recall Bill electing you as his spokesperson.
      SNIP
      > Thus far he has not felt what you insist that he does, in
      > terms of fanfic.
      
      So, YOU are privy to BP's very feelings & thoughts on this topic.  Goodie.
      I assume then that you've chatted w/ him, the writers, & all the HL actors
      about fanfic & especially about slash.  I can just see you passing around
      print-outs of your own stories to all.  Exactly what do they think about it?
      How did they rate what _you've_ done w/ the HL universe?  Did you inspire
      them so that EDM will star in the (supposedly) upcoming new HL series?  Are
      you getting a credit?  Educate us, please.  Come on--spill.
      
      
      > I'm glad that you've been able to give us all such a clear perspective now
      > on where true evil resides - I *used* to think that there were worse
      things
      > in the world than writers of slash but I see now that I was mistaken.  >
      > ...mea culpa...mea culpa...mea maxima culpa....of course, that Evil Duncan
      > MacLeod has known of the state of my soul for quite some time and it just
      > doesn't seem to matter how often I retreat to my prayer stool, those
      > MacLeods just bring out the worst in me! Nina I truly need all the help I
      > can get!
      
      You know, I remember when you _participated_ in discussions here, Carmel,
      rather than swooping in at the end just to personally attack someone who did
      participate.  I remember when you actually had something meaningful to say.
      Of course, that was a long time ago.
      
      Nina
      geiger@maui.net
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:04:19 -0400
      From:    Sandy Fields <diamonique@earthlink.net>
      Subject: Re: "Endgame" video question.
      
      At 03:38 PM 07/11/01, Stephen Bryce wrote:
      
      >Does anyone know when it's going to be out for
      >sell-through VHS?
      
      The VHS has been out for quite some time.  I got mine through Columbia
      House.  Check around and you'll find it.
      
      -- Sandy
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:26:25 EDT
      From:    Dotiran@aol.com
      Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
      
      In a message dated 7/11/2001 4:52:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
      geiger@maui.net writes:
      
      
      > You know, I remember when you _participated_ in discussions here, Carmel,
      > rather than swooping in at the end just to personally attack someone who did
      > participate.  I remember when you actually had something meaningful to say.
      > Of course, that was a long time ago.
      >
      > Nina
      >
      
      You know, I'm a very vocal opponent of fanfic in general and slash in
      particular and so by "rights" I should be siding with you Nina in this
      discussion. But I've stayed out of it. On this list I usually prefer to lurk.
      If Carmel has come in to sideswipe here, it may be because she was on the
      receiving end of a major wack herself here, and that was *not* "a long time
      ago."
      It wasn't aimed at me and I had nothing to do with it but I can still feel
      the sting two years later.  It wasn't a heated debate, it was personal.  And
      the list has not been the same since.
      Makes me wonder why I don't believe in karma.
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:38:27 +0100
      From:    John Mosby <A.J.Mosby@btinternet.com>
      Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
      
      I come here for good discussion, intelligent thoughts and the warm fuzzy
      feelings. Okay... and the women.
      
      I'm guessing the rest is just a bonus?
      
      John
      
      
      
      
      
      
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
      To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
      Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:52 PM
      Subject: Re: [HL] ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
      
      
      > Carmel--
      > > Gosh - does that mean that every article and novel and script based on
      the
      > > Bible, should never have been written because they are based on a
      universe
      > > created by, amongst others, Matthew, Mark et al????
      > SNIP
      > > As
      > > Methos so incisively pointed out, "Hitler was just a poor boy whose
      mother
      > > didn't love him.." (or something similar).
      >
      > Ooh--the Bible AND Hitler in the same post--gotta be a record.... for
      > excess.  Not very creative, though.
      >
      >
      > > You'll forgive those of us who would prefer
      > > to allow the actual copyright owners to decide whether they are or are
      not
      > > outraged.  I don't recall Bill electing you as his spokesperson.
      > SNIP
      > > Thus far he has not felt what you insist that he does, in
      > > terms of fanfic.
      >
      > So, YOU are privy to BP's very feelings & thoughts on this topic.  Goodie.
      > I assume then that you've chatted w/ him, the writers, & all the HL actors
      > about fanfic & especially about slash.  I can just see you passing around
      > print-outs of your own stories to all.  Exactly what do they think about
      it?
      > How did they rate what _you've_ done w/ the HL universe?  Did you inspire
      > them so that EDM will star in the (supposedly) upcoming new HL series?
      Are
      > you getting a credit?  Educate us, please.  Come on--spill.
      >
      >
      > > I'm glad that you've been able to give us all such a clear perspective
      now
      > > on where true evil resides - I *used* to think that there were worse
      > things
      > > in the world than writers of slash but I see now that I was mistaken.  >
      > > ...mea culpa...mea culpa...mea maxima culpa....of course, that Evil
      Duncan
      > > MacLeod has known of the state of my soul for quite some time and it
      just
      > > doesn't seem to matter how often I retreat to my prayer stool, those
      > > MacLeods just bring out the worst in me! Nina I truly need all the help
      I
      > > can get!
      >
      > You know, I remember when you _participated_ in discussions here, Carmel,
      > rather than swooping in at the end just to personally attack someone who
      did
      > participate.  I remember when you actually had something meaningful to
      say.
      > Of course, that was a long time ago.
      >
      > Nina
      > geiger@maui.net
      
      ------------------------------
      
      Date:    Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:39:40 +0100
      From:    John Mosby <A.J.Mosby@btinternet.com>
      Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
      
      My karma just ran over my dogma?
      
      
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <Dotiran@aol.com>
      To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
      Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 11:26 PM
      Subject: Re: [HL] ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
      
      
      > In a message dated 7/11/2001 4:52:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
      > geiger@maui.net writes:
      >
      >
      > > You know, I remember when you _participated_ in discussions here,
      Carmel,
      > > rather than swooping in at the end just to personally attack someone who
      did
      > > participate.  I remember when you actually had something meaningful to
      say.
      > > Of course, that was a long time ago.
      > >
      > > Nina
      > >
      >
      > You know, I'm a very vocal opponent of fanfic in general and slash in
      > particular and so by "rights" I should be siding with you Nina in this
      > discussion. But I've stayed out of it. On this list I usually prefer to
      lurk.
      > If Carmel has come in to sideswipe here, it may be because she was on the
      > receiving end of a major wack herself here, and that was *not* "a long
      time
      > ago."
      > It wasn't aimed at me and I had nothing to do with it but I can still feel
      > the sting two years later.  It wasn't a heated debate, it was personal.
      And
      > the list has not been the same since.
      > Makes me wonder why I don't believe in karma.
      
      ------------------------------
      
      End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 10 Jul 2001 to 11 Jul 2001 - Special issue (#2001-190)
      *******************************************************************************
      
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