HIGHLA-L Digest - 5 Jan 2001 to 6 Jan 2001 - Special issue (#2001-16)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@LISTS.PSU.EDU)
Sat, 6 Jan 2001 11:41:11 -0500
There are 16 messages totalling 810 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS (11)
2. Greetings and Question about Endgame (4)
3. Greetings and Question about Endgame-SPOILERS snipped
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 00:09:34 EST
From: Lance Aldridge <GPrimeCEO@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
In a message dated 1/5/01 12:18:13 AM Central Standard Time,
lilith93@hotmail.com writes:
<<
>At 02:33 PM 01/04/2001, Lance Aldridge wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>>This is a matter of opinion. IMHO, anyone who thought Connor should die
>>is
>>not a true HL fan.
>
>IMHO, anyone who thought Connor shouldn't have died in Endgame is not >a
>true HL fan. All true HL fans recognize Duncan MacLeod of the Clan
> >MacLeod as the one true Highlander.
>
>Long Live The Highlander!!!
<< Man this is getting a bit stupid isn't it?
I've been a HL-fan since the first movie, though I must admit I watched for
the Kurgan and I hated Connor when Kurgie baby got killed.
I didn't mind the third movie, though I kept thinking, that's the damn
(censured here) who killed Kurgie.>>
Why do you hate Connor so? If not for him, there wouldn't be a Highlander.
<<To be honest I haven't seen the fourth movie yet, being European and all,
but I'd see it just to see Connor die, does that keep me from being a 'real'
HL-fan.>>
Why? Connor has proven time and again that he is the best at what he does.
he is, for many of us, the only Highlander, and his defeat of the Kurgan in
the first film was utterly believeable.
And oh yes, Duncan's the best of the two Highlanders (nah nah nah nah nah) >>
Actually, he's the second best, right in front of Quinton Macleod.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 00:16:17 EST
From: Lance Aldridge <GPrimeCEO@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
In a message dated 1/5/01 5:13:23 AM Central Standard Time,
vfoster@mindspring.com writes:
<< >At 02:33 PM 01/04/2001, Lance Aldridge wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>>This is a matter of opinion. IMHO, anyone who thought Connor should die
is
>>not a true HL fan.
>
<snort> oh gee.. thank you for clearing that up for me. Does this mean I'm
a "true HL fan" because you say so. <snort><chuckle>
IMHO, of course, i feel anyone who enjoys Highlander but doesn't like connor
is missing the point, and thus is not a true fan. But can we get beyond the
true fan business. I'm outspoken enough that everyone here knows my stance
on HL fandom, and what needs to be done to save the franchise, namely, the
resurrection of Connor Macleod.
Sandy:
>IMHO, anyone who thought Connor shouldn't have died in Endgame is not a
>true HL fan. All true HL fans recognize Duncan MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod
>as the one true Highlander.
>
>Long Live The Highlander!!!
>
ROTFLMAO!!
Lance says I am, Sandy says I'm not. And people wonder why I stay
so confused all the time. :-)
I basically view HL fans on a spectrum type scale. Rightist Liberal HL fans
play fast and lose with the HL franchise, freely accepting innane changes to
the original timeline (ie, Connor kills, the Kurgan, kills Kane and builds
the shield and saves the earth) they choose to feel Connor is a suicidal
inept who allows his lesser cousin to take his life to kill a second rate
eveil immie.
Leftist Purist HL fans believe the original Hl and his timeline is the only
valid HL and timeline. In other words, Connor is it and there are no
substitutes. I'm more to the left. I can enjoy the series, but to me Duncan
will forever be a less than adequete lesser cousin of Connor's.
Here's a great poll. Where do most of the people on this list fall in the
spectrum?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:41:58 -0600
From: "T.Jastram" <idlehanz@flashmail.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame
>
> << >At 02:33 PM 01/04/2001, Lance Aldridge wrote:
>
> I basically view HL fans on a spectrum type scale. >
So, did you come up with this spectrum all by yourself?
Tricia <must be somewhere over on the ultraviolet side>
<red shift, blue shift>
<green eggs and Slan>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:43:36 +1100
From: tunnack <tunnack@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
<< >At 02:33 PM 01/04/2001, Lance Aldridge wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Lance: <<...Here's a great poll. Where do most of the people on this list
fall in the
spectrum?..>>
I'm a conservative liberal Marxist Highlander with leanings towards the
faction that supports worship of the Great White Ram with a healthy dose of
fascism thrown in occasionally when I'm trying to fool the Opposition.
Kind regards
@ Carmel Macpherson:
<<<@{}=================>>> Chief EDFWs
@ carmel@hldu.org
http://carmel.simplenet.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Highlander DownUnder: An Official HL Fan Club.
http://www.hldu.org
***HLDU4: Apr 6-8, 2001. Brisbane***
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 01:00:15 EST
From: Lance Aldridge <GPrimeCEO@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
In a message dated 1/5/01 9:31:08 AM Central Standard Time,
liser@lightlink.com writes:
<<
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
>
Lance:
> >Only problem is the death was a cheap one. It reeked of gimmick and that
> >came across as distasteful.
>
>
>I thought it was a repeat of what we saw several times in the series, Duncan
>forced to kill a friend or ally and in angst over it. I was hoping for a
>fresher approach to the immortal concept and we got a rehas of the small
>screen.
<< A fresher approach to the immortal concept? Such as?>>
Glad you asked. The Connor-Duncan pairing, if it had to happen, could have
been so much more interesting. How about having Duncan kill one of Connor's
friends unknowingly, and then having Connor deal with going after his former
student and the consequences thereafter. Who needs an evil immie, and there
many ways to resolve this situation and have a great story. Endgame was to
simple, and unsatisfying.
>
>It was weak and lazy writing IMHO.
<<It's not the most rock-solid plot in the world, I'll give you that.
But I don't find it weak or lazy in the slightest. The themes in
this movie--loss, redemption, sacrifice--are big ones...and not the
sort that "weak" or "lazy" writers pull off.>>
It was weak and lazy because they chose to repeat what they had done in the
series.
Me, about why Connor had to be in this movie:
> << His presence was integral. First of all, the whole point of the bad
> guy was that he (Kell) wanted to stick it to Connor.>>
Lance:
>
>Connor could have been Methos or any other friend of Duncan's and the impact
>would have been the same. They killed Connor for the sake of killing
Connor,
>but with no real thematic validity.
<< Not so. Not so at all. If you think that Connor and Methos rate the
same on Duncan's scale, you're suffering from a lack of understanding
of both Duncan *and* Connor.>>
I think Methos is as important to Duncan as Connor, just in a different way.
Lance:
>Only because he was burned out and suicidal, both of which are out of
>character for him. It just wasn't Connor.
<<Connor has been burned out every time we've seen him on screen.>>
No, and he was NEVER suicidal.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 01:09:38 EST
From: "Renaissance (Karen Miller)" <RENMACWOW@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
In a message dated 1/5/01 9:45:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
tunnack@ozemail.com.au writes:
<< I'm a conservative liberal Marxist Highlander with leanings towards the
faction that supports worship of the Great White Ram with a healthy dose of
fascism thrown in occasionally when I'm trying to fool the Opposition.
>>
Gee, Carmel, I never knew you were one of those Great White Ram HL
fans........been one myself for years!
~Rennie
Renaissance/Karen
Dream as if you'll live forever; Live as if you'll die tomorrow
||/
[[[[[{}::therecanbeonlyone::>>>
||\
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 17:19:28 +1100
From: tunnack <tunnack@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
Hi all
<<
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
>
Lance:
<<..The Connor-Duncan pairing, if it had to happen, could have
been so much more interesting. How about having Duncan kill one of Connor's
friends unknowingly, and then having Connor deal with going after his former
student and the consequences thereafter. Who needs an evil immie, and there
many ways to resolve this situation and have a great story. Endgame was to
simple, and unsatisfying...>>
Seriously Lance I don't think that Connor would go after Duncan in these
circumstances - i.e. if Duncan unknowingly killed a friend of Connor's. Now
what *would* be interesting would be if Duncan *knowingly* killed a good
friend of Connor's. I've always thought about what would have happened in
Modern Prometheus if Methos hadn't stepped aside to make way for Duncan to
go to Byron...what if Methos has said "Mac..do this for me! Because I ask
it. Let him live." What would Duncan have done then?
Lance: <<..It was weak and lazy because they chose to repeat what they had
done in the
series...>
It was certainly derivative. That in itself doesn't make it weak but I'd
have to agree that, for me, it wasn't a great story line.
Re Connor's state of mind. After Rachel's death I think that something broke
inside Connor. All that he had loved were lost, except for Duncan. He knew
that Duncan would never take his head so he chose to remove himself to a
supposed place of safety and merciful oblivion in terms of his pain. Once
even that plan was shattered and he realised that all of the tragedy had
been part of a malicious and murderous plot by an old and very powerful
enemy he must have realised that he had gambled badly. On the one hand his
disappearance seems to have at least lessened any interest Kell had in
killing those that Connor loved. After all, where was the fun in it for
Kell if there was no Connor to suffer. So at least Connor's decade in
Sanctuary probably led to Duncan's survival since we know that Duncan had
been out of the Game back in 1993. Connor was scared silly about his
unpreparedness, as we saw in the Gathering.
So in some ways Connor was incredibly self-sacrificing in that he bought
Duncan extra time to well and truly get back into the Game and to get his
skills back to where they should be. When he realised that Kell had
discovered Sanctuary and therefore that Connor still lived he knew that
Kell's sole motivation in leaving him alive was to ensure that he witnessed
Duncan's death at the hands of Kell. Ironically Connor would have been
better to have taken Kell on back in 1993 when his own skills were still
excellent. But Kell chose well when he killed Rachel and the broken man who
was left behind was simply not in a fit state to deal with Kell.
It seems to me that Connor's choice in 93 was the same one he made in 2003 -
to not let Kell get his Q and to try and ensure Duncan's safety. Lance you
don't need to put Duncan down to raise Connor up. Like Methos, all are
deserving of admiration in their own right and don't need to deplete those
around them. There are many here who are fervent Connor and Duncan fans.
To belittle Duncan is to belittle Connor and his choices.
At the end of the day we have to go with the movie we were given (plus the
Euro minutes, so to speak, that we will get in the DVD). My own scenario is
that when Duncan wins the prize all those he loves will once again live,
since that is the first thing that I'm sure that Duncan will wish for.
I know - I know - I'm just a simple soul.....:-))
Kind regards
@ Carmel Macpherson:
<<<@{}=================>>> Chief EDFWs
@ carmel@hldu.org
http://carmel.simplenet.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Highlander DownUnder: An Official HL Fan Club.
http://www.hldu.org
***HLDU4: Apr 6-8, 2001. Brisbane***
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 17:20:35 +1100
From: tunnack <tunnack@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
Hi all
Rennie: <<..Gee, Carmel, I never knew you were one of those Great White Ram
HL
fans........been one myself for years!..>>
Geez Louise! We could form a herd! (Apologies to Peter Cook's brilliant
'Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer' film which inspired my worship of the
Great White Ram...:-)
Kind regards
@ Carmel Macpherson:
<<<@{}=================>>> Chief EDFWs
@ carmel@hldu.org
http://carmel.simplenet.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Highlander DownUnder: An Official HL Fan Club.
http://www.hldu.org
***HLDU4: Apr 6-8, 2001. Brisbane***
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 01:49:32 -0600
From: mousehounde <mousehounde@datalinkc.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
<< >At 02:33 PM 01/04/2001, Lance Aldridge wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
<Lance>
IMHO, of course, i feel anyone who enjoys Highlander but doesn't like connor
is missing the point, and thus is not a true fan. But can we get beyond the
true fan business. I'm outspoken enough that everyone here knows my stance
on HL fandom, and what needs to be done to save the franchise, namely, the
resurrection of Connor Macleod.
<snip>
I basically view HL fans on a spectrum type scale. Rightist Liberal HL fans
play fast and lose with the HL franchise, freely accepting innane changes to
the original timeline (ie, Connor kills, the Kurgan, kills Kane and builds
the shield and saves the earth) they choose to feel Connor is a suicidal
inept who allows his lesser cousin to take his life to kill a second rate
eveil immie.
Leftist Purist HL fans believe the original Hl and his timeline is the only
valid HL and timeline. In other words, Connor is it and there are no
substitutes. I'm more to the left. I can enjoy the series, but to me
Duncan
will forever be a less than adequete lesser cousin of Connor's.
<me>
Geez! Well lets try this:
Lance! You are totally correct! Conner is the only TRUE Highlander! Without
him the franchise will be nowhere! All others are a pale imitation! You have
convinced me! I bow before your wisdom! The movie should have been filmed
using your own shining vision! I see that now! Thank you for showing me the
true path! You WIN!! Congrats! NOW PLEASE GO AWAY! [stage direction: Lance,
having been declared victorious, descends into lurkerdom, secure in the
knowledge that he has shown the misguided the way back to enlightenment.]
mouse
[where the hell is that Kill-file/ blocker thingy and how did it work again?
There it is. Done!]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 08:40:25 -0500
From: Elaine Nicol <ElaineN@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
>> Here's a great poll. Where do most of the people on this list fall in
the
spectrum <<
I'm a Highlander fan, just ask anyone who knows me.
Elaine.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:25:49 -0500
From: Gina Shaw <ginadc@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame-SPOILERS snipped
>
><< >At 02:33 PM 01/04/2001, Lance Aldridge wrote:
>
>Leftist Purist HL fans believe the original Hl and his timeline is the only
>valid HL and timeline. In other words, Connor is it and there are no
>substitutes. I'm more to the left. I can enjoy the series, but to me Duncan
>will forever be a less than adequete lesser cousin of Connor's.
>
>Here's a great poll. Where do most of the people on this list fall in the
>spectrum?
Druid. Reformed.
Gina
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 11:19:40 EST
From: Lance Aldridge <GPrimeCEO@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame
In a message dated 1/5/01 11:44:17 PM Central Standard Time,
idlehanz@flashmail.com writes:
<<
> I basically view HL fans on a spectrum type scale. >
So, did you come up with this spectrum all by yourself?
>>
Actually, yes, though its widely accepted by HL fans particularly within the
Consortium.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 11:21:36 EST
From: Lance Aldridge <GPrimeCEO@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
In a message dated 1/6/01 12:01:37 AM Central Standard Time,
GPrimeCEO@aol.com writes:
<<
<<
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
>
Lance:
> >Only problem is the death was a cheap one. It reeked of gimmick and
that
> >came across as distasteful.
>
>
>I thought it was a repeat of what we saw several times in the series,
Duncan
>forced to kill a friend or ally and in angst over it. I was hoping for a
>fresher approach to the immortal concept and we got a rehas of the small
>screen.
<< A fresher approach to the immortal concept? Such as?>>
Glad you asked. The Connor-Duncan pairing, if it had to happen, could have
been so much more interesting. How about having Duncan kill one of Connor's
friends unknowingly, and then having Connor deal with going after his former
student and the consequences thereafter. Who needs an evil immie, and there
many ways to resolve this situation and have a great story. Endgame was to
simple, and unsatisfying. >>
Another thought hit me. How about having Connor kill one of Duncan's friends
in a quarrel, perhaps Methos or Amanda, and having Duncan deal with going
after hos former teacher and kinsmen.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 11:27:53 EST
From: Dotiran@aol.com
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
In a message dated 1/6/01 11:22:19 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
GPrimeCEO@aol.com writes:
<< How about having Connor kill one of Duncan's friends
in a quarrel, perhaps Methos or Amanda, and having Duncan deal with going
after hos former teacher and kinsmen.
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
S
P
A
C
E
Ah yes, *that* would doubly ensure Connor's death. You dinna want to mess
with an angry Duncan. There'd be no nobility either in Connor's death this
time around.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 11:30:50 EST
From: Dotiran@aol.com
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame
In a message dated 1/6/01 11:20:35 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
GPrimeCEO@aol.com writes:
<< Actually, yes, though its widely accepted by HL fans particularly within
the
Consortium.
ah yes, the damn imaginary Consortium.
Next we'll see photos from the imaginary protest march.
Sigh.
oh, p.s. this list doesn't allow roll calls [is a poll a roll call?] *vbeg*
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:41:58 -0600
From: "T.Jastram" <idlehanz@flashmail.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame
>
> <<
> > I basically view HL fans on a spectrum type scale. >
>
> So, did you come up with this spectrum all by yourself?
> >>
>
> Actually, yes, though its widely accepted by HL fans particularly within
the
> Consortium.
>
No, I'm not going to ask. Nope.
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 5 Jan 2001 to 6 Jan 2001 - Special issue (#2001-16)
****************************************************************************