HIGHLA-L Digest - 5 Jan 2001 (#2001-15)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@LISTS.PSU.EDU)
Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:00:04 -0500
There are 5 messages totalling 496 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS (4)
2. Quick reminder re QOS
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:28:52 +1100
From: tunnack <tunnack@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
Hi all
> <<
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Kintoun said:
<<..Geiger said that Kell wasn't special and therefore I was curious whether
she
felt the Kurgan was special. The main example of Jacob deserving his hype is
his
battle with Connor in Connecticut. He managed to severely slash Connor four
times if I remember correctly. It wasn't a fluke. Jacob was simply better.
If
you don't believe he was special, I guess you think even less of Connor's
abilities.>>..
Seriously I don't think that this counts at all! Connor had just come out
of 10 years in a comatose state. He hadn't practised and was at a serious
physical and emotional low. He was in no way equipped to take on almost
anybody at that stage. I didn't take from this scene anything at all
regarding Kell's superiority. the odds were almost ridiculously uneven and
Kell knew that. So did Duncan which was why he was so afraid for Connor's
life. Connor was ill, in more ways than one. We also saw many more highly
skilled sword fights in both movies and series than the cemetery sword fight
of Kell's.
A more interesting question for me was who was being followed by Kell? I
assume that it was Joe or that Kell had observers stationed at Sanctuary and
therefore knew when Duncan was released? In other words how did Kell know
to be at the cemetery?
Kintoun: <<..As for the Last Supper scene, have you forgotten the fact that
Jin Ke expected
Jacob to betray them all? He revealed that he was prepared to defend himself
before Kell made the first move....>>
My take on this Kintoun was that Kell intended all along to have a ritual
sacrifice of his flock...he took great pains with the dinner...gave us that
endless boring speech...that's why I think they were nervous....the more
intelligent had suspected what Kell's intentions were........and then
intended to take the power of all his followers in order to be even stronger
in taking on Duncan or Connor or both. It niggled me though that the
Quickenings didn't come in the right order...all coming at once only makes
sense if they were all killed at the same time and this wasn't the
impression given. My reading was that there was at least some minutes
between the first and the last beheading.
Kintoun: <<..You can't expect the Watchers to
prepare for everything. Kell was supposed to be the most formidable immortal
in
the world...>>
Actually I *do* expect them to have at least prepared for such an
occurrence. To go to all the trouble of running Sanctuary, equipping it,
training people for it...to have that huge responsibility and duty of care
to the Immortals who trusted them...yes, I do expect that they would have a
myriad of fail safe measures in place to stop the Kell's of the world....off
the top of my head of can think of poisonous gas pellets, once security was
breached, which would have at least immobilised the invaders until
reinforcements were sent...I'd expect a central monitoring room......I'd
expect Emergency doors to slam shut all around the Immortals....I'd expect
that the security would be so tight that the Connor's of the world would
have had a full tour before they committed and been satisfied...I'd have
expected something a whole lot better than a man with prosthetics and an
accomplice with a sword being able to fool them all a second time and kidnap
one of their exhibits! (Duncan). You'd have thought that after the first
embarrassing botch that security at Sanctuary would have been utterly
impregnable the second time around!
It's just that in the face of this ineptitude it lessens and dilutes, for
me, Kell's power. It was as if he was playing with children so he didn't
have to be very skilful.
Kind regards
@ Carmel Macpherson:
<<<@{}=================>>> Chief EDFWs
@ carmel@hldu.org
http://carmel.simplenet.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Highlander DownUnder: An Official HL Fan Club.
http://www.hldu.org
***HLDU4: Apr 6-8, 2001. Brisbane***
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:40:13 GMT
From: Sue Mazzeo <smazzeo@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
>Hi all
>
>> <<
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
Carmel said:
> It niggled me though that the
>Quickenings didn't come in the right order...all coming at once only makes
>sense if they were all killed at the same time and this wasn't the
>impression given. My reading was that there was at least some minutes
>between the first and the last beheading.
>
>
Yes, Carmel, that is the way it was played in the theater version. However,
in the workprint, Kell takes three of the head in one swipe and then Jin Ke
beheads himself. This sequence makes more sense for the way the quickenings
are shown. It's just a case of another glitch caused by the editing needed
to do it Miramax's way!
Sue Mazzeo
smazzeo@jps.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:09:54 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >S
> > > > > > > > > >P
> > > > > > > > > >O
> > > > > > > > > >I
> > > > > > > > > >L
> > > > > > > > > >E
> > > > > > > > > >R
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >S
> > > > > > > > > >P
> > > > > > > > > >A
> > > > > > > > > >C
> > > > > > > > > >E
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
Kintoun--
> You don't need to mention the Kurgan or Highlander 1 for me to integrate
it into
> the conversation. If you say that Kell wasn't special, that implies that
other
> k'immies were somehow special in your opinion. I've seen HL1 many times.
How
> would I know about Kastagir otherwise? He never appeared in any other
Highlander
> movie or TV episode? You seemto be the one who is confused in this thread.
I'm
> sorry if you can't follow when when topic strays into another issue.
Sigh. Just a helpful hint--since you seem to be enjoying this conversation
so very much--I'm about out of patience w/ your increasingly ugly attitude &
getting very little out of this to warrant future effort on my part.
The fact you chose to "integrate" it the way you did certainly made it
_sound_ like you thought I was talking about The Kurgan. But, whatever.
Fact is, nothing shown in the movie establishes that Kell had any special
powers. He was just an Immie w/ a lot of kills. And weird shoes. (Also, I
got the impression he had really bad breath. But not "specially" so.)
> Certain people don't believe
> Jacob deserves his reputation. I merely pointed out that we have more on
screen
> evidence of his evil than we do of the Kurgan.
No, we didn't. From what we _saw_ the 2 Immies do onscreen, The Kurgan was
more evil than Kell, in my opinion. The Kurgan raped, pillaged, murdered
mortals, desecrated churches, ate condoms, committed road rage, & whacked
Immies all for sport, basically. (The Kurgan was one hell of a guy,
really.) Kell killed mortals & whacked immies for a purpose--religious
fervor (as to C's mom) & revenge (as to the rest, apparently--not that the
movie was careful to indicate his specific motivations). (Kell pales beside
The Kurgan, now that you mention it.) The motivations don't excuse Kell's
behavior, but on my personal evil-meter, The Kurgan was more evil, as well
as a more dangerous opponent if only because he was totally unpredictable;
Kell's motivations made him completely predictable.
But, I thought you were more interested in _special powers_ you see in Kell,
though as far as I have noticed no one else in this thread seems to see them
clearly established in the movie.
> I agree 100% that numbers alone don't necessarily prove Kell lived up to
his
> hype but both Joe and Methos felt he deserved the recognition. Why would
they
> show concern for Duncan if Kell limited his headhunting to really easy
targets?
Maybe bad writing or lack of filming time or other production problems just
failed to provide anything else to make Kell seem to be a formidable
opponent. It's quick & easy to have Joe & Methos _say_ Kell is a bad-ass,
but it takes more time & effort to _show_ it; they didn't do that in the
movie.
> It's all relative to how many kills are commited by the 'average'
immortal.
> Connor and Duncan's tally combined didn't equal Kell's final count.
And my point was--any Immie's total count of heads is largely irrelevant--to
whether that Immie is evil, or has special powers, or whatever. It just
means that Immie has taken X number of heads.
> > > One of the highlights of the preliminary script is
SNIP
> It's may be irrelevant to you but I'm sure several people are interested
in
> reading it. Fans have different opinions as to what should be trusted as
cannon.
It's "canon." Cannons go boom. (And don't bother trying to insult me by
calling me the spelling police next time.)
Interest is one thing--canon's another. A bootleg preliminary script for a
movie is about the least reliable source of canon that I can imagine.
> The key issue is the speed with which that happens. As I've said numerous
times
> before, Kell wouldn't stay dead for longer than a second or two no matter
what
> prior to Duncan cutting his head off.
You keep saying it, but there's no indication in the movie that you are
correct. And, it may be a key issue to you, but I find it irrelevant.
> > > Are you disputing that the Watcher monks didn't have time to kill
Cracker
> > Bob,
> > > Carlos, Winston, Manny, and Jin Ke if Kell hadn't shown up?
> >
> > (BTW--That sentence structure make it impossible to tell what you mean.)
>
> Are you the grammar police all of a sudden. It's awfully petty to nitpick
> sentence structure.
I'm just trying to figure out what the heck you are talking about. Frankly,
it's an uphill climb.
> I realize that revival times vary depending on the circumstance.
OK, so that makes fast or slow revival time irrelevant to an Immie's alleged
special powers, evilness or anything else. Move on.
> You can't prepare for every imaginable situation. I bet a nuclear bomb
would
> wipe out the sanctuary too. Should they construct a bunker?
Yes, they should have. If the Watchers really thought that Sanctuary was
all that protected the entire world from whatever horrible thing results
from an evil Immie winning The Game, then they _should_ have prepared for
all eventualities, including nuclear disaster. An alarm system on the
outskirts of the property would have been smart, too. They certainly should
have had a better line of doomsday defense than a few guys wearing robes &
carrying big guns.
> I'm ackowledging your view as a possibility but you don't seem willing to
do the
> same.
Well, I don't agree w/ you. Should I fake it just to be nice?
> Perhaps it wasn't sloppy editing. I honestly don't see what reviving time
> has to do with Jacob Kell in this discussion.
Didn't _you_ bring it up? And hammer it into the ground?
me before--
> > (What do you mean--"on this ML"?)
You didn't answer the above question. What is "ML?"
> I've never tried to sway your opinion. I simply wanted to point out that
*maybe*
> Kell really was faster than humans can ever become.
Sorry, I don't see any evidence of that in the movie. That you do doesn't
change my opinion. *Maybe* Kell could turn into a bat & hang by his heels,
but the movie didn't show that, either.
> You seem defensive that anything brought up from the script is an attempt
to
> show that the movie was 'wrong.'
If you are saying I'm determined to defend the dear old movie--boy, have you
got that backward! I'm happy to admit that the movie got tons of things
"wrong."
I just don't think that things only in the script & the way _you_ interpret
them necessarily have any relevance to the movie.
> Who
> knows which of us is right?
"Right"? About some silly detail as to Kell? Who cares? I saw the movie,
& I know what I think about it & about Kell. I'm sure you feel the same
way.
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 21:19:04 -0500
From: Rebecca Wallace <becky717@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Quick reminder re QOS
------Original Message------
From: "Claire L. Maier, Ph.D." <bioaw124@EMORY.EDU>
To: HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU
Sent: January 5, 2001 4:02:33 PM GMT
Subject: Re: Quick reminder re QOS
On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Rebecca Wallace wrote:
> Bizarro7@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Just a reminder that Elizabeth Gracen will be the guest star featured on
next
> > week's QUEEN OF SWORDS. I believe this is one of the episodes written by
> > Gillian Horvath, as well. For those not following the show regularly,
might
> > be worth peeking in.
>
> And Anthony de Longis has an actual role in the ep this week, right? (He
was
> seen in the
> pilot as Tess's fencing trainer, but this ep he has a major part)...
No, not in this ep, which is "The Counterfeit Queen." Elizabeth Gracen is
in it, but not Anthony DeLongis. His ep is "The Hanged Man."
And "Counterfeit Queen" will be airing the week of January 8.
Ok, so I didn't phrase my question quite right.. what I was trying to figure
out was if AdL's ep (which I knew was HM and a sep. ep.) was coming on
*this* week finishing up (QoS comes on Sat. afternoon for me) since I
thought it was supposed to air before Liz' ep, which was established in the
message as *next* week (not tomorrow, but *next* Sat for me)... I check the
Whoosh site, the QoS site, and my local "Green Section" (from the newspaper,
a week-long local tv guide that comes in Sat paper) but half of the time I
see 2-3 different titles for what ep is supposed to be showing (same thing
with Relic Hunter, which I tape for a friend... sometimes it's a real gamble
what ep I'm actually going to get)...
Sorry for the confusion...
-Becky
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:22:20 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Question about Endgame SPOILERS
S
P
o
I
L
E
R
S
> >
> >> <<
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
Sue--
> Yes, Carmel, that is the way it was played in the theater version.
However,
> in the workprint, Kell takes three of the head in one swipe and then Jin
Ke
> beheads himself. This sequence makes more sense for the way the
quickenings
> are shown. It's just a case of another glitch caused by the editing
needed
> to do it Miramax's way!
Why do you think _Miramax_ forced that particular view of this scene (as
well as some other scenes, I take it)? Why in the world would Miramax care
about how the BHs & Q was shown, etc.? It can't have been as to the gore
factor--there was plenty of that elsewhere.
>From what BP told mags at the time, _he_ was in the editing room up to the
very last minute & up to his elbows in the process--definitely involved in
the final edit just days prior to release. If Miramax was calling the
shots, why would he be there?
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 5 Jan 2001 (#2001-15)
**********************************************