HIGHLA-L Digest - 22 Aug 2004 to 23 Aug 2004 (#2004-159)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:00:05 -0400
There are 21 messages totalling 759 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. sad news: Claire Maier (7)
2. To Be, Not To Be (14)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 01:18:16 EDT
From: CATLADYx7@aol.com
Subject: Re: sad news: Claire Maier
Sorry to hear the news:-( My friends and I were just
talking about her about a month ago and wondering what happened to her.
Rae
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 01:43:28 EDT
From: Nancy C <NancySSCH@aol.com>
Subject: Re: sad news: Claire Maier
I too met Claire on line and in person at the first HL gathering, and her
loss is all our losses, most definitely. She gave cogent feedback on fanfic and
was very bright and entertaining to talk to, whether or not you agreed, yes,
she was certainly a must read and a must hear. She was passionate about
highlander, and forcefully articulate. She will be missed. My condolences to her
family as well.
Nancy
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 03:15:58 -0700
From: "Lynn G. Hocker" <penumbra9star@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: sad news: Claire Maier
Oh this is incredibly sad news. And in my opinion -- 48 years old is way too
young!
I, too, remember Claire -- she was alway so knowledgeable about HL and
filming in general. Condolences to her family. She will be missed.
:-(
Lynn~
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:07:19 -0400
From: ke731458@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu
Subject: Re: sad news: Claire Maier
man...
I wasn't good friends with Claire. But it was always nice to see familiar
names onlist. I'll miss her.
--Miracle
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:20:07 +1000
From: Carmel Macpherson <tunnack@webone.com.au>
Subject: Re: sad news: Claire Maier
I too was deeply saddened by this news. I remember Claire well as one of
the most articulate and thoughtful posters in Highlander. Her contribution
to the fandom was immense and she will be deeply missed.
As Duncan once said - "Their spirit lives on as long as we remember them."
Kind regards
@ Carmel Macpherson
<<<@{}=================>>>
@ President, HLWW
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
France Tour: 2 Oct - 10 Oct 2004
HLWW6: 29 April - 1 May, 2005. Sydney.
http://www.highlanderworldwide.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:39:55 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: To Be, Not To Be
Being the glutton for punishment that I am (No, wait.)(I like to give punishment, not receive it)(anyway) I watched To Be/Not To Be on SpikeTV this morning. A few thoughts.
1) I still hate "It's A Wonderful Life" in all its many forms. When a TV shows does an IaWL episode, it's over. Luckily (?) for Highlander this was true.
2) Fitz - dead or alive- is fun.
3) The dead ferret living on "Street Joe's" head was scary. Are decent wigs *really* that expensive?
4) In the real world (RW), Richie becomes Immortal, Duncan trains him, Duncan kills him. In the IaWL world, Richie becomes Immortal, Methos trains him, Methos kills him. It's a wash. I can't see that knowing Duncan improved Richie's life in any material way.
5) Jillian, Methos' IaWL lover, was dumb as a post. And Methos was dumb to trust her. The Watchers are essentially a roving squad of executioners and Methos risks his 5000 year old neck by telling a fellow Watcher -even one he loves- about what he is? Obviously, knowing Duncan raised Methos' IQ by several points.
6) RW Tessa met Duncan, had 13 great years producing art, had no children, and died in a hail of gunfire. IaWL Tessa met Andres, had a big house, 2 children, gave up art and was vaguely unhappy about her life. Fitz implies that - with or without sex with a handsome stranger- she would eventually leave her husband and, I assume, find her passion again. So, is RW Tessa better off? Are 13 wonderful years with Duncan followed by an early death *really* better than a longer life span with 1) her children and 2) the possibility of re-finding her art? Duncan made Tessa's life different...I wonder about "better".
7) Did the characters hear "Amazing Grace" during the Quickening or only the audience?
8) Watching the last scene, with the benefit of several years distance, I decided that Duncan walks off into the fog *not* to leave his friends in order to prevent them from being used against him, but to find a wine shop that was still open because Methos drank all the champagne. Twenty minutes later he returned and life went on as usual.
In the end, I suppose TB/NTB was a better ending for HL than Endgame was. Which isn't saying all that much <EG>
Wendy(It was nice to see "Barbarian Duncan" riding that ubiquitous white horse through the mist one last time.)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:39:10 -0700
From: Stephen Bryce <sibryce@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
> 2) Fitz - dead or alive- is fun.
Agreed -- too bad they had to use flashbacks and ghosts to bring him
back.
> 4) In the real world (RW), Richie becomes Immortal, Duncan trains
> him, Duncan kills him. In the IaWL world, Richie becomes Immortal,
> Methos trains him, Methos kills him. It's a wash. I can't see that
> knowing Duncan improved Richie's life in any material way.
I thought the point was that Duncan helped Richie clean up his act,
which Methos evidently didn't.
> 6) RW Tessa met Duncan, had 13 great years producing art, had no
> children, and died in a hail of gunfire. IaWL Tessa met Andres, had a
> big house, 2 children, gave up art and was vaguely unhappy about her
> life. Fitz implies that - with or without sex with a handsome
> stranger- she would eventually leave her husband and, I assume, find
> her passion again. So, is RW Tessa better off? Are 13 wonderful
> years with Duncan followed by an early death *really* better than a
> longer life span with 1) her children and 2) the possibility of
> re-finding her art? Duncan made Tessa's life different...I wonder
> about "better".
Well he probably made whatever life was there happier, if the glimpse
we got in this episode was any indication.
> 7) Did the characters hear "Amazing Grace" during the Quickening or
> only the audience?
WTF? It was just background score -- do you seriously think that
Connor heard "Who Wants to Live Forever?" while living with Heather??
Steve
=====
"I'd rather have one and not need it than need one and not have it."
(Adele Rousseau [Agathe De La Boulaye], on bringing a gun on a dig, "Alien vs. Predator")
__________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:18:27 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
Wendy Tillis wrote:
>Being the glutton for punishment that I am (No, wait.)(I like to give punishment, not receive it)(anyway) I watched To Be/Not To Be on SpikeTV this morning. A few thoughts.
>
>1) I still hate "It's A Wonderful Life" in all its many forms. When a TV shows does an IaWL episode, it's over. Luckily (?) for Highlander this was true.
>
>
Agreed.
>2) Fitz - dead or alive- is fun.
>
>
Agreed.
>3) The dead ferret living on "Street Joe's" head was scary. Are decent wigs *really* that expensive?
>
>
The Paris hair styles for virtually all the actors sucked, big time.
>4) In the real world (RW), Richie becomes Immortal, Duncan trains him, Duncan kills him. In the IaWL world, Richie becomes Immortal, Methos trains him, Methos kills him. It's a wash. I can't see that knowing Duncan improved Richie's life in any material way.
>
>
Have to disagree here. Richie died early on in both, but in the RW, he
knew love and family, he learned to respect himself and others, feel
real acheivement, race motorcyles (endlessly, but he seemed to like it),
etc. Also, Duncan trained Richie to survive and thrive in the world.
We don't really see Methos train Richie to do anything but steal more
successfully (since apparently Richie was a pretty bad thief in both
worlds).
>8) Watching the last scene, with the benefit of several years distance, I decided that Duncan walks off into the fog *not* to leave his friends in order to prevent them from being used against him, but to find a wine shop that was still open because Methos drank all the champagne. Twenty minutes later he returned and life went on as usual.
>
>
Good point.
MacG
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:20:47 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
Stephen Bryce wrote:
>
>WTF? It was just background score -- do you seriously think that
>Connor heard "Who Wants to Live Forever?" while living with Heather??
>
>
It's just a guess, but I think she was being sarcastic. <g>
MacG
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:32:56 -0500
From: Kamil <kamilaa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
<Wendy>
> 2) Fitz - dead or alive- is fun.
That he is. Love me some Fitz.
> 3) The dead ferret living on "Street Joe's" head was scary. Are decent wigs *really* that expensive?
Apparently. LotR had the best wigs I've ever seen, but you think
there'd be at least a few steps in between 'whaddya mean that's not
his real hair?' and "oh, my God, there's a dead ferret on his head!'.
<snipping examples of people whose fates were more or less the same each way>
You left Amanda off your list -- and while it's not provable from
TB/NtB that Duncan alone changed her so dramatically, if you take what
she told him in FUOT as well, it did seem that knowing Duncan made the
world of difference to Amanda. She was a clearly different person,
what with the whole shooting her husband, etc. business.
Not to mention that whole killed by eval watchers in the AU thang. <g>
>
> 7) Did the characters hear "Amazing Grace" during the Quickening or only the audience?
One would think they'd've run for it if they had. Or maybe not, maybe
hearing bad covers of old spirituals is a staple of Qs. No wonder some
of them are so cranky.
> Wendy(It was nice to see "Barbarian Duncan" riding that ubiquitous white horse through the mist one last time.)
Yeah, I like that final shot too.
--
Kamil
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:16:56 -0400
From: "Zk ~Grumpy" <zimmy@highstream.net>
Subject: Re: sad news: Claire Maier
Claire wrote to a bunch of people a couple of years ago, asking us to keep in
touch while she was in the hospital. I was not doing too great at the time and
didn't. I was thinking about her recently; how I should get in touch with her
and see how she was. I remember someone saying, when Kip died, that she had a
card that she meant to send to him and that it was now too late. I know the
feeling.
I remember many, many nights spent sitting up way too late with books scattered
all over my study as the chats scampered from Highlander to Edgar Allen Poe to
English history to anywhere else that you can imagine and back. She was one of
the first people I talked to on line and we kept in touch for a long time.
I don't know what her wishes concerning flowers etc. were, but I plan to make a
contribution to the Ntl. Diabetes Foundation in memory of a formidable woman
with a mind to be reckoned with.
May she be in a place where, free from physical limitations, she and Kip can
herd Kip's cows and imbibe amber liquids to their hearts content.
:::: fondly remembering the never-to-be-forgotten day at one of the Syndicons,
walking down the aisle merrily heaving chairs right and left so she could get
her scooter through ::::
Does anyone know what provisions she made for her cats?
ZK
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:13:24 EDT
From: Highlandmg@aol.com
Subject: Re: sad news: Claire Maier
Ohh How she loved those cats Mask and Marble I wish I was closer to go to the
memorial.
my prayers are with her and her family. I did talk to her about a year ago
but she was just sitting down to dinner. I never did get to call her back.
Mary
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:37:54 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
me:
>> 4) In the real world (RW), Richie becomes Immortal, Duncan trains
>> him, Duncan kills him. In the IaWL world, Richie becomes Immortal,
>> Methos trains him, Methos kills him. It's a wash. I can't see that
>> knowing Duncan improved Richie's life in any material way.
Stephen:
>I thought the point was that Duncan helped Richie clean up his act,
>which Methos evidently didn't.
Still in all ....dead.<g> Dead, either way.
>> 6) RW Tessa met Duncan, had 13 great years producing art, had no
>> children, and died in a hail of gunfire. IaWL Tessa met Andres, had a
>> big house, 2 children, gave up art and was vaguely unhappy about her
>> life. Fitz implies that - with or without sex with a handsome
>> stranger- she would eventually leave her husband and, I assume, find
>> her passion again. So, is RW Tessa better off? Are 13 wonderful
>> years with Duncan followed by an early death *really* better than a
>> longer life span with 1) her children and 2) the possibility of
>> re-finding her art? Duncan made Tessa's life different...I wonder
>> about "better".
>Well he probably made whatever life was there happier, if the glimpse
>we got in this episode was any indication.
I suppose this is a philosophical question....but is it better to have 13 great years and die or have 50 years -some of which are good and some of which are bad and most of which are just middling? Is being alive with two children she loves and a boring husband better, worse, or just different than being dead after 13 years of unwedded childless bliss with Duncan? And do we really know how unhappy she was until Duncan came along? Was she merely mildly dissatisfied? Miserable? Pretty happy until someone rocked her boat? Certainly her life without Duncan would have been radically different, I'm just not sure Duncan was the person to decide if it was better or worse off because of him.
Frankly, I think it was inexcusable for him to sleep with her. He used his "insider" knowledge of her past to first meet and then bed her. He knew he was in an alternate universe where they weren't together, he knew he wouldn't be staying there with her, he knew she was married, and still he slept with her. Tsk tsk.
>> 7) Did the characters hear "Amazing Grace" during the Quickening or
>> only the audience?
>WTF? It was just background score -- do you seriously think that
>Connor heard "Who Wants to Live Forever?" while living with Heather??
He didn't?
Wendy(Another cherished movie memory destroyed.)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:00:02 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
Wendy Tillis wrote:
>
>
>Frankly, I think it was inexcusable for him to sleep with her. He used his "insider" knowledge of her past to first meet and then bed her. He knew he was in an alternate universe where they weren't together, he knew he wouldn't be staying there with her, he knew she was married, and still he slept with her. Tsk tsk.
>
>
Wow, I sure saw this differently. Were we watching the same scene? He
was in agony. He didn't *use* anything, and tried to leave, but she was
as drawn to him as he to her. He had lost her, the unquestioned love of
his life, and now - for just a moment - he had her again. And then he
lost her once again. The man isn't Superman, isn't even *supposed* to be
Superman. I think it is one of the most powerful scenes in all of
Highlander.
MacGeorge
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:16:09 -0700
From: Stephen Bryce <sibryce@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
> Frankly, I think it was inexcusable for him to sleep with her. He
> used his "insider" knowledge of her past to first meet and then bed
> her. He knew he was in an alternate universe where they weren't
> together, he knew he wouldn't be staying there with her, he knew she
> was married, and still he slept with her. Tsk tsk.
I have to agree with you there. Granted, Duncan has been known to
sleep with married women before (not that I'm crazy about that either,
but I digress), I know that flawed characters make for more interesting
ones, I know they were originally soul mates, yada yada yada. Despite
that, I could never really get tolerate this scene -- it was just grade
A stupid at the very least, immoral at worst -- and I've been dumped
for less than this in real life so I would know.
Steve
=====
"I'd rather have one and not need it than need one and not have it."
(Adele Rousseau [Agathe De La Boulaye], on bringing a gun on a dig, "Alien vs. Predator")
__________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:55:43 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
I said:
>>Frankly, I think it was inexcusable for him to sleep with her. He used
>his "insider" knowledge of her past to first meet and then bed her. He
>knew he was in an alternate universe where they weren't together, he knew
>he wouldn't be staying there with her, he knew she was married, and still
>he slept with her. Tsk tsk.
MacG:
>Wow, I sure saw this differently. Were we watching the same scene?
Probably.
> He
>was in agony. He didn't *use* anything, and tried to leave, but she was
>as drawn to him as he to her. He had lost her, the unquestioned love of
>his life, and now - for just a moment - he had her again. And then he
>lost her once again. The man isn't Superman, isn't even *supposed* to be
>Superman. I think it is one of the most powerful scenes in all of
>Highlander.
I agree that he was in agony. He also knew that this *wasn't* his Tessa. Hadn't he been through this before - doesn't he know he can't recapture something that was lost? And, sure, she was drawn to him but when the husband left, Duncan should have left too. There was no "good" to be had by staying - other than a night of sex which ended up making them both miserable in the morning (her with her guilt and regret and him with her rejection). All this Tessa knew was that he was a tall, dark, handsome man who said he knew her from long ago and who showed her more interest than her boring, practical husband did. Duncan knew "what might have been" , Duncan knew what they had meant to each other, Duncan knew she was dead, Duncan knew he wasn't there to stay (what would he have done if she had woke up and asked him to go away with her?) And, whatever they might have been to each other in another lifetime, she was another man's wife in *this* reality. He didn't have to give her the !
old "do you believe in fate" speech.I understand *why* he did it, I just don't like that he did do it.
Of course one can subscribe to the idea that these IaWL people aren't real in any sense (and therefore whether Duncan beds Tessa is immaterial since the second Duncan "leaves" she ceases to exist) ... that they are constructs of Duncan's subconscious designed to keep Duncan alive. ..that he could just as easily have seen a Tessa who was a crack whore, a Richie alone on the street still stealing for a living, a Joe in a VA hospital with delusions of "Immortals", Methos and Amanda married and raising goats, etc. Duncan's unconscious and subconscious mind knew exactly what scenes were necessary to convince Duncan of the need to fight back...and they had nothing to do with what might really have happened if Duncan hadn't lived. It was a carefully crafted fantasy designed for one purpose and one purpose alone - get him back on his feet and moving again. Under these circumstances, the sex with Tessa is just a "reward" he allows himself and then punishes himself for. Which soun!
ds a lot like Duncan, come to think about it.
Wendy( I admit it, I don't believe in angels.)(Especially angels that can transport one to IaWL)(Wouldn't there be numerous IaWL scenarios for each person?)(What if Tessa didn't meet Duncan *and* she did meet <insert huge art patron's name here>?)(What if Richie didn't meet Duncan but did steal enough to settle down and go to college?)(After all, if one buys the concept of parallel universes -angel induced or otherwise- then there is also a universe where Tessa and Duncan are still together.)( and one where she left Duncan after a few years to have kids)(and one where he was killed and she moved on to marry Fitz)(and one where he was killed and she became a striper)( etc)( At every moment a new parallel universe is being created and any IaWL shows just one possibility.)(Which makes the whole thing pretty pointless, IMGLO)(Other than to stroke someone's ego with how vitally important they are)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:57:10 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
MacGeorge--
>>>He
was in agony. He didn't *use* anything, and tried to leave, but she was
as drawn to him as he to her. He had lost her, the unquestioned love of
his life, and now - for just a moment - he had her again. And then he
lost her once again. The man isn't Superman, isn't even *supposed* to be
Superman. I think it is one of the most powerful scenes in all of
Highlander.>>>
DM usually didn't use his pain as an excuse to hurt others. And, knowing
what he did (& what she didn't) his seeing & sleeping w/ Tessa could only
hurt her. As for the love scene overall, I thought it was awkward & over
the top. The actors did what they could to save & sell it, but it looked
like the writers had said, "OK, it's the end of the series, so we need one
last sex scene w/ these 2."
Wendy--
>>> Frankly, I think it was inexcusable for him to sleep with her. He used
his "insider" knowledge of her past to first meet and then bed her. He knew
he was in an alternate universe where they weren't together, he knew he
wouldn't be staying there with her, he knew she was married, and still he
slept with her. Tsk tsk.>>
Yes, & he could well have gotten her pregnant. DM was MORTAL in this
reality; hence the lack of a Q when he BHd Alt Methos toward the end of Not
To Be (plus the non-Buzz thing going on the whole time). He surely wasn't
carrying protection, after 400 years of being carefree in that department;
it's possible that off-screen he snapped his fingers & Angel Fitz supplied a
condom like he did the coins for Ferret-Head Joe's hat, but I doubt it.
Maybe Alt Tessa was on the pill, but maybe not. Would a 3rd child have made
Alt Tessa's life better? None of this matters if the whole thing was a
dream or vision, but Alt Fitz called it an "alternate universe." HL has a
few of those "out there" & in one of them DM could well be a daddy.
The studio/love nest location, BTW, was the same used for the final fight &
Q back in S2 w/ Nefertiri & said to have been wicked cold both times.
The finale could have been SO much worse, considering season 6 as a whole.
But, considering HL:TS as a whole, the finale SHOULD have been a lot better.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:23:13 +0100
From: "a.j.mosby" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
> >>Frankly, I think it was inexcusable for him to sleep with her. He used
> >his "insider" knowledge of her past to first meet and then bed her. He
> >knew he was in an alternate universe where they weren't together, he knew
> >he wouldn't be staying there with her, he knew she was married, and still
> >he slept with her. Tsk tsk.
It really depends on a few things, mostly how you perceive what is happening
to Duncan.
If we/he are merely observing a different reality where things worked out
differently and there is a history and a future without Duncan's presence to
anchor it, then what he does as a living breathing entity in that universe
can be judged in that respect. It's not right to sleep with another man's
wife in that reality or this. Duncan probably wouldn't do that (though,
let's be honest, that four hundred years or so hasn't been spotless for our
hero). But I'm not sure Duncan actually perceives what is happening as a
different reality.
For him Fitz is showing him what never was, what could have been but wasn't
and what will never be. He's showing Duncan the 'What If...' nothing more
substansial than a dream, but one with a specific lesson that Fitz - or
Duncan's subconcious - is trying to teach him. Duncan MacLeod, at least our
twentieth century Immortal, doesn't exist here. Maybe never did. He and
this world, may not have a presence outside what Fitz is showing him in,
pushing him around to various scenarios.
And then Duncan sees one of the greatest loves of his life. One he remembers
being taken from him in an abstract act of horrible violence that he
couldn't prevent. One person that he didn't expect to lose so soon and to
whom he couldn't even say goodbye. A person who seems as lost as he is.
Now, I'd love to tell you that if I'd thought I'd forever lost someone who I
loved with *every* ounce of my being... and then unexpectedly she walked
back into my life, seemingly lost and disillusioned... that it wouldn't even
cross my mind that I was being given a second chance. I'd love to say I
wouldn't be tempted to do something to hold onto it this time or recapture a
moment however briefly, even if it was just a chance to say goodbye, even if
was more than a little selfish... I'd love to say that but if I'm being
honest I don't how overpowering that temptation might be. And that's real
life.
Now imagine it's nothing more than a dream, an ephermeral moment of
melancholy and I'm pretty certain that I might grab that moment with both
hands knowing that when morning came I could certainly live with the echoes
of my imagination.
But Duncan *doesn't* wake before he sees the price of his actions. Fitz has
given him a chance to say goodbye, to be with 'Tessa' one last time but
equally shown him that it too would have carried consequences. He's shown
Duncan that what he had with the real Tessa was much more powerful and
fulfilling. Though the scene itself is hugely emotional, I'm not sure that I
flet sorry for Tessa once we entered the real world again. She didn't exist.
Never had. Never would in this new respect.
Dreams allow a little latitude. They don't always contain the things we
should do or would do in any ohter circumstances, but they are a gateway to
every single 'What If..' and every single decision - bad or good - we might
ever have made.
John
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:24:59 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
MacWestie wrote:
>Yes, & he could well have gotten her pregnant. DM was MORTAL in this
>reality; hence the lack of a Q when he BHd Alt Methos toward the end of Not
>To Be (plus the non-Buzz thing going on the whole time).
>
That's an argument that holds absolutely no water for me. He had been
Immortal for over 400 years, for goodness sake! Suddenly after hundreds
of years of it never being an issue, under incredible stress and in a
completely surreal situation, he's going to remember that he might need
birth control? Our boy is smart and tries to do the right thing and all
that, but - get real!
One of the things that I find most appealing about Duncan is that he is
human, subject to the same drives and emotions and needs as the rest of
us. I cannot find it in my heart to condemn him for reaching out to the
one person in all his 400 years had accepted him and loved him
completely, and whom he had lost so suddenly and tragically.
And, by the way, it takes two to tango.
MacG
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:17:49 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
me before--
> >Yes, & he could well have gotten her pregnant. DM was MORTAL in this
> >reality; hence the lack of a Q when he BHd Alt Methos toward the end of
Not
> >To Be (plus the non-Buzz thing going on the whole time).
MacGeorge--
> That's an argument that holds absolutely no water for me.
Possibly because it is not an argument, any more than it is a bucket. What
I wrote is fact--DM was presented as a mortal in the alternate universe & so
was presumably capable of fathering a child there. That's just an oddity
arising from the particularly outlandish plot, & I doubt the writers or
actors realized it at the time. Of all men, DM has about the best excuse
not to have worried about contraception.
>He had been
> Immortal for over 400 years, for goodness sake! Suddenly after hundreds
> of years of it never being an issue, under incredible stress and in a
> completely surreal situation, he's going to remember that he might need
> birth control? Our boy is smart and tries to do the right thing and all
> that, but - get real!
You missed my point. Their having sex was "wrong" in that context not
because he didn't stop by a drugstore but bec. it was out of character for
DM. He treated the various people he dealt w/ via Fitz as real; he tried to
help the versions of friends he met, so he would have tried to help Tessa,
as well. Surely he could have come up w/ something more than having a one
night stand w/ a married woman w/ children. And, really, she was little
more _his_ Tessa than Lisa from S2 was (though of course he bedded her,
too); Alt Tessa just looked like the woman he loved--this woman turned out
quite different w/ out him--that was Fitz' point.
It was done because the show was ending, & they had AV on set, & those 2 are
so fabulous together...but that doesn't make the sex scene anything other
than forced. A lot like the rest of the finale.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:45:00 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
MacWestie wrote:
> You missed my point. Their having sex was "wrong" in that context not
>
>because he didn't stop by a drugstore but bec. it was out of character for
>DM.
>
Then why did you bring it up at all? It sure sounded like you were
arguing that he *should* have been acting like this was real and not
only (putting back of hand to forehead) valiantly been strong and brave
and wonderfully thoughtful of everyone's feelings and needs except his
own, turned away from what he wanted most in the world, and even if
Tessa had thrown herself at him (which she sorta did) and sat on him and
insisted on having her wicked way with him, he should have insisted on
birth control.
>He treated the various people he dealt w/ via Fitz as real; he tried to
>help the versions of friends he met, so he would have tried to help Tessa,
>as well. Surely he could have come up w/ something more than having a one
>night stand w/ a married woman w/ children.
>
Except that he didn't accept Fitz' version of reality (that was the
whole point, that he had a hard time believing the people he cared about
were actually different from the ones he knew). He never acted as
though he were mortal, even to the point of taking on Kronos and Methos
in swordfights. What he saw was not a married woman with two children.
What he saw was his Tessa, the women he loved and lost. Geez. You won't
let him be human at all, will you? He's not Superman, and it would be
pretty boring if he was Mr. Perfect. (If he were, I figure you'd be
criticising him for not acting believably. <g>)
I'm not all that keen on this episode, but I felt that this wonderfully
acted, incredibly poignant scene was its saving moment so we may have to
agree to disagree (again <g>).
MacG
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 22 Aug 2004 to 23 Aug 2004 (#2004-159)
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