HIGHLA-L Digest - 13 Jul 2001 (#2001-195)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@LISTS.PSU.EDU)
Fri, 13 Jul 2001 22:00:01 -0400
There are 11 messages totalling 480 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. OT: Do not go gently....
2. HL Store (2)
3. Belated ADMIN: Endgame Spoiler lifetime is over
4. Wendy's The List Weasel new bar ?
5. ATTN: All Fan Fic writers (6)
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Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 18:28:46 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Do not go gently....
Hmmmm. Two messages mixed up there. Sorry. Friday 3th and all that!
*sigh* (tm)
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@BTINTERNET.COM>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [HL] OT: Do not go gently....
> Sorry. Brainfart.
>
> (Still recovering from Nocturnal ) ;)
>
>
> I mean on the Saturday night! We spoke on the Friday
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Elaine Nicol" <ElaineN@compuserve.com>
> To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 12:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [HL] OT: Do not go gently....
>
>
> > >> I WAS at Nocturnal. Dang. Which vampire/Darla/Dru were you?
> >
> > :)
> > John <<
> >
> > I know you were, we spoke for long enough. You just weren't there when
> > that conversation came up.
> >
> > >> (went as a journalist....scary) <<
> >
> > I spent most of that con with journalists which is even more
scary...<EG>
> >
> > Elaine.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:35:24 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: HL Store
In a message dated 7/13/01 10:55:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
lloschin@sprynet.com writes:
<< No, the official HL store will not be at Reunion. Holzheimer's will
be there and they are the Store's licensee, and can get hold of many
of their items. If you are interested in something in particular I
recommend contacting them ahead of time as they don't bring every item
to every con, but can probably bring something in particular upon >>
Also, there is a company that sells Highlander merchandise on Ebay. They are
not the Highlander Store. I bought a couple of older catalog items from them
a couple of months ago and they seemed very reliable. I received the
merchandise very quickly. So, it doesn't hurt to search on Ebay for some of
the items. I also paid a lot less than the catalog price for the items.
Annie CWPack
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 18:12:59 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Belated ADMIN: Endgame Spoiler lifetime is over
> It just dawned on me that I never ended the Spoiler lifetime on
> "Highlander: Endgame". Sorry. I do believe that it has been released
> in most if not all of the countries of people who belong to this list
> and that ten months should definitely have covered it for most
> people. The last release that the Internet Movie Database shows was in
> Lithuania on May 25th.
But not in Britain. Lithuania but not Britain - and not
the Netherlands either from what I'm told by my Dutch
friends.
Jette
Glory may be fleeting, but obscurity is forever!
bosslady@scotlandmail.com
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 16:03:24 -0400
From: "Terry L. Howard" <howardtl@muohio.edu>
Subject: Wendy's The List Weasel new bar ?
While looking at a What on Earth catalog, www.whatonearthcatalog.com, I
found a sweatshirt for the "3 Ferrets bar & Grill in Cornwall, England. I
couldn't help but wonder what Wendy been up to in the UK.
Terry L. Howard
MCIS Network Operation Center
113 Hoyt Hall
"I had a great idea this morning, but I didn't like it."
- movie mogul Samuel Goldwyn
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:48:31 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: HL Store
Annie--
> Also, there is a company that sells Highlander merchandise on Ebay. They
are
> not the Highlander Store. I bought a couple of older catalog items from
them
> a couple of months ago and they seemed very reliable. I received the
> merchandise very quickly. So, it doesn't hurt to search on Ebay for some
of
> the items. I also paid a lot less than the catalog price for the items.
That's Closeout Store. As the name implies--they mostly sell stuff that
won't be in the HL:Store catalogs anymore. But, they also sell some basics
that are not being discontinued. I've had great results buying from them,
too.
In fact, I'll likely never buy from the HL:Store again. EBAY in general has
scads of HL stuff; if you check regularly & are willing to wait a bit, just
about anything you could want will show up there, usually at a good price &
in mint condition. And, you can also find the odd & wonderful item of your
HL dreams, that would NEVER be sold anyplace else.... The best part--no HL:
Store nightmares.
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 18:03:26 -0400
From: KLZ <zklee@patriot.net>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
>
> << The only thing I can get from this argument is that parents should
> not let their kids surf the Net unsupervised. I have a 13 year-old
> cousin whose father still will not let her use the Net, even if her
> 18 year-old brother is with her. Of course, this is a different
> argument. People always want society to do their jobs for them. "It's
> not the fault of lazy parents that their kid saw porn on the Net, no,
> porn is evil and people shouldn't show it!" >>
>
Hah. Whippersnappers. These kids today don't know from rules.
Why, in *MY* day, we had advice books that advised a young lady
to never ride in a carriage without a male relative, and
recommended that, if the carriage were crowded, that she sit on a
good thick catalog.
:::: looking around at Listees who are staring strangely ::::
Ahem.
Usually, you can't display outright porn on the street or on TV
where kids can see it easily. You have to exert some effort to
go into a movie theater, subscribe to "adult" TV channels, etc.
A kid certainly might sneak in, but the intention of various
ordinances seems to be that it's not right out there where people
can stumble over it accidently.
Many adult sites have an agreement that you have to read and
agree with; I would imagine it's recorded somewhere. I don't
know if that's common practice. The SPAM that I get in my AOL
mailbox - sometimes the subject headers are borderline obscene in
themselves.
I don't think that's it's unreasonable to ask that people who
build porn sites have at least the same amount of safeguard as
porn businesses must have against accidental access.
ZK (Hill. Rocks. Uphill. Both ways. huge snowdrifts. Didn't
complain.)(Drinks at the 3 ferrets pub on Wendy!)(:::: clutching
Stargate SG-1 Entire Season 1 DVD's tightly and gloating ::::)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:35:59 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
Lynn--
> Bill is definitely aware of the web boards and what's said on them.
Ok, so speaketh Lynn. That doesn't really help much w/ the point at hand.
If you've spoken w/ BP about this, how DOES he feel about fanfic? About
slash? In relation to DPP's franchise rights, his personal tastes, fan
relations, etc.?
And, are there limitations on the Q&A sessions at Reunion? Specifically,
are questions on fanfic/slash allowed? If not, is that due to requests from
the GOHs, or per your personal sensibilities?
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 22:39:38 GMT
From: angelmyst@ntsource.com
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
At 06:03 PM 7/13/2001 -0400, ZK wrote:
Usually, you can't display outright porn on the street or
on TV
where kids can see it easily. You have to exert some
effort to
go into a movie theater, subscribe to "adult" TV channels,
etc.
A kid certainly might sneak in, but the intention of various
ordinances seems to be that it's not right out there where
people
can stumble over it accidently.
I don't think that's it's unreasonable to ask that people
who
build porn sites have at least the same amount of safeguard
as
porn businesses must have against accidental access.
It's not unreasonable to ask this, but in terms of
safeguarding our children against accidental viewing of
porn such as subscribing to special adult channels and
such, this is not the case in all countries from what I
understand. And the internet is all over the world not
just a US comodity.
>From talking to a great many people residing in countries
other than the United States they find it amazing that
human sexuality is regarded as such a horrible thing to be
kept from our children but yet we allow the nightly news to
show people being killed, dead bodies and violence.
As the parent of an 11 year old daughter I feel that it is
not societies job to police what she sees on the internet
and what she does. I take an active role as a parent in
teaching her right from wrong and good from bad, I
supervise her time on the internet. And if she does happen
across a porn site along the way, we have had them pop up
just from doing searchs for mp3's, well thats the way it
is. I would much rather her see that by accident than
having her watch a film clip of a man shot down on the
street.
Just my 2 cents
Kat
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:55:53 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
Trilby--
> I think that all of us who write acknowledge know that it's illegal
> and, to some degree, immoral.
Thank you. Maybe you & Diana should chat.
>But I see it, by and large, as a
> "victimless crime".
As do the perpetrators of many crimes, I'd guess--though they do things
you'd much rather weren't done to you. Guess I'd be more convinced if we
had the franchise owners, the actors, etc. say THEY think fanfic/slash is a
victimless crime.
> Another example: I do drive over the speed limit as long as I'm
> careful and the traffic will allow it, and I think I won't get caught. I
> know it's illegal. I know it's to some degree immoral to knowingly
> break the law. I just don't happen to feel one bit guilty over it,
> because nobody's getting hurt.
> If I were to crash and (God forbid) injure another person and/or their
> car while I'm speeding, than I deserve whatever punishment is
> meted out to me, because I caused harm to come to another
> person.
But, if you kill someone while speeding, the dead person will still be dead.
Your being punished after the fact won't change that & so won't right the
wrong. Similarly, skating along breaking any law or moral code just because
it's fun & your friends are doing it & you probably won't get caught isn't
really the point. It's wrong, regardless, & you can't predict exactly WHAT
will come of that or necessarily fix the results.
> ------------------- Trilby (who didn't quite realize how immoral she
> could be till she started writing about breaking the rules and not
> caring. *G*)
Well, now you know.
Jo--
> I believe my use is covered by the Fair Use provision.
Ok, since I'm SURE your belief is based on something more than having heard
that phrase bandied about & liking its ring, could you provide us w/ a
summary of the Fair Use doctrine in the copyright/trademark context
(origins, extent, limitations, etc.) & apply that to fanfic, please?
Diana--
>>>A valid argument on legality might at least make me
think twice, but an argument based on morality?>>>
The legal arguments HAVE been made here. Copyright & trademark laws protect
things like the HL universe from infringement by others, unless the use fits
into certain narrow exceptions. Fanfic doesn't. It infringes on the legal
rights of DPP. It's illegal to distribute it. Several fanfic writers have
acknowledged that here--they just don't care.
>>>Please. I'll save my morality for _real_ issues like
hate crimes and child abuse, and let others worry
about the minutia.>>>
Well, since you aren't (I assume) perpetrating hate crimes or abusing
children, I'd think you could spare a look at the morality of what you ARE
doing.
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 16:19:01 -0700
From: Lynn <lloschin@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
From: Geiger <geiger@MAUI.NET>
>Lynn--
>
>> Bill is definitely aware of the web boards and what's said
on them.
>
>Ok, so speaketh Lynn.
Okay, I guess I'm lying, since you say so. Whatever.
>That doesn't really help much w/
>the point at hand.
Sure it does. He told me he knows what's posted on the boards,
in fact, he knew about specific discussions on individual boards.
Therefore it makes sense that he knows there is an *entire*
board devoted to "chain stories." I have no idea if he's ever
looked at them (I doubt it) but I'd be very surprised if he doesn't
even know that board exists. You do have to navigate the menu
that lists all the boards to get to specific ones.
>And, are there limitations on the Q&A sessions at >Reunion?
Yes, we have several common-sense limitations that we hope will
make the experience better for everyone.
>Specifically,
>are questions on fanfic/slash allowed?
It's posted on the web site, but the answer is no, it's not allowed,
nor has it been allowed at any convention I'm aware of in the
past few years.
>If not, is that due to requests from
>the GOHs, or per your personal sensibilities?
Neither -- it hasn't come up with any of the guests, and my sensibilities
don't have anything to do with it. My experience from being
on the staff at a number of conventions and from attending many
others is that questions about fanfic are not welcome by at least
some of the guests, and like questions about the guests' personal
lives, are best avoided.
Lynn
(yeah, I know, Leah, I know...)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 18:28:38 -0700
From: J Raumo <jraumo@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
Nina writes:
>>Ok, since I'm SURE your belief is based on something
more than having heard that phrase bandied about &
liking its ring, could you provide us w/ a summary of
the Fair Use doctrine in the copyright/trademark
context (origins, extent, limitations, etc.) & apply
that to fanfic, please? <<
I believe I've already done that but in the interests
of civility I'd be glad to do so again.
You can find the entirety of the copyright law here:
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/title17/
Fair use is detailed in section 107 of Chapter 1.
A good summary of Fair Use and how it applies to fan
fiction is at:
http://users.erols.com/tushnet/law/fanficarticle.html
Marina provided another good summary of how Fair Use
applies to fan fiction. It can be found at:
http://www.geocities.com/cc_ssd/copyright.html
Nina writes:
>>Copyright & trademark laws protect things like the
HL universe from infringement by others, unless the
use fits into certain narrow exceptions. Fanfic
doesn't. It infringes on the legal rights of DPP. It's
illegal to distribute it. <<
This is your opinion. Now since I'm sure that your
opinion is based on something more than having heard
the phrases bandied about and liking their ring could
you provide us with citations to relevant case law
showing that fan fiction is excluded from the Fair Use
clause? Could you also provide for us proof of
economic damage caused by fan fiction?
Jo Raumo
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 13 Jul 2001 (#2001-195)
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