HIGHLA-L Digest - 9 Jul 2001 (#2001-186)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@LISTS.PSU.EDU)
Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:00:01 -0400
There are 12 messages totalling 611 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. ATTN: All Fan Fic writers (5)
2. Fanfic question following the discussion... (3)
3. Reunion
4. OT: Roger Daltry on Witchblade
5. AP as Bond?
6. Highla-L' has been around for how long?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 09:40:16 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
Marina--
> Ah, but like most Internet porn, someone looking for fanfic is going
> to have to know how to look for it and where to find it. What PTB is
> going to spend hours tracking down fanfic?
Hours??? Fanfic, including slash, can be found w/in moments, just by
searching for "Highlander" (or other franchise name) on the net. And I'd
think any PTB interested in protecting their legal rights _would_ keep track
of fanfic.
But, you think it's _their_ fault if a producer or writer or actor "finds"
fanfic--slash or otherwise--on the Internet? So, in order to soothe your
conscience, maybe they just shouldn't be online at all?
> Actually, yes. They've been looking the other way for 35 years, they
> can just keep right on.
No, the Internet changed the whole ballgame re: fanfic (as it did w/ a lot
of other stuff). TPTB _could_ ignore fanzines; they can't ignore the web.
> No, but as I pointed out, when modern myths are owned by corporations
> instead of "the people" as a whole, then corporations must not be
> surprised when "the people" start adding to them the way they would
> have long ago.
Sorry, but that guy's underlying "theory" is laughable twaddle. Highly
convenient for fanfic writers, but still.
> And why write fanfic if you're the only one
> who reads it?
I agree--most fanfic writers do it for the attention. That doesn't mean
they have the right to steal fictional universes from their owners, in order
to latch onto that universe's built-in (due to the owner's hard work, money
& risk) audience, then exploit it for their own purposes.
>Sharing fanfic is fun. If you hate fanfic, fine, don't
> read it. But don't tell everyone else what to do.
Well, I think I'm as entitled to my opinion about the rights & wrongs of
fanfic as you are. And I AM telling fanfic writers that distributing their
work widely such as via the Internet is going to backfire, at some point.
It's just too blatant.
And, I also think ALL fans are punished for fanfic writers' selfish
excesses, just as we are ALL punished when TPTB, actors, etc. react
reasonably to things like stalkers.
> How widely? On mailing lists? Web pages?
Yes.
> No, ALL fanfic should be kept away from TPTB. Singling out slash for
> particular derision just makes me think people are homophobic. TPTB
> look the other way because they can pretend they don't know about
> fanfic. Then they don't have to worry, and neither do we. But waving
> a story, slash or not, under TPTB's noses makes it impossible for
> them to pretend they don't know about it. THAT is what I was saying.
Slash is an extreme form of fanfic, so reactions to it are likely to be
extreme. It will therefore be singled out. That doesn't mean that people
who dislike slash are homophobic.
It sounds like you would be ashamed for TPTB to read what you write, slash
or whatever. Surely, that's reason right there to stop doing it.
> And, frankly, any actor who would be more shocked at slash than, say,
> a het story, is not an actor I would want to watch anyway. I don't
> think most actors today would be upset by slash.
Then, I think you are naive. And--if you really think that, why NOT present
slash stories to them? Why NOT show off your work to them, just as you do
to other fans? Why NOT ask all the GOHs at Reunion about fanfic & slash in
particular? Your position that it's all OK, as long as TPTB can pretend
they don't know about it doesn't make sense to me. Something like this is
either right, or it is wrong. And, it isn't right, just because you like
doing it.
John (on actors & slash)--
>>>While most say
they have no problem with a person's absolute right to have their own sexual
preference, it's a slightly different issue to be written about and placed
in a slash situation by default.>>>
Yes, it is. Because the actor chose & was paid & had input in portraying
the character a given way. Fine. Then, the fanfic slash writer comes along
& changes that very dramatically. Often w/ the most explicit, pornographic
detail, sometimes throwing in S&M, extreme violence, & so on just for "fun."
All of which the actor had NO say in or control over. Yet, it's the actor's
very own face (& other body parts, of course) the reader _sees_ when reading
the story. And, I don't think it's unreasonable for an actor to think those
unofficial "performances" (w/ the slash elements, as well as anything else
added on by the amateur writer) could color the public perception of
them--really all-important to a public figure such as an actor--in much the
same way their _actual_ carefully chosen & enacted performances do.
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 09:48:54 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: Fanfic question following the discussion...
Marina (about real people slash)--
> I've read quite a few articles by people who like reading and
> writing RPS, but I can't be convinced that it's okay. It's...
> icky. <g>
Well, that's how I feel about character slash. It's ICKY.
Leah (also about RPS)--
>>>I know it exists among fans of various music idols and mainstream actors
(and
you can find it in various porno story compilation sites in vast quantities,
on the web). Media fans seem to be totally focused on the *characters* that
the actors portrayed, however. I'm sure it might exist somewhere, but I've
never seen a single story about the *actors* (rather than the characters) of
a popular media SF show in 30 years of involvement in media fandom and
fanfic. Some fans who oppose adult or slash fanfic like to cite it as part
of
their argument, but it's an extreme rarity I've never seen.>>>
Then you don't get around much. I've stumbled on AP/PW stuff, just looking
around the net for general HL material--not even fanfic. And I've seen
similar stuff in other genre fandoms recently.
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 17:37:27 -0400
From: Antoinette Stewart <toni822@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Reunion
Sandy wrote: I'm still hoping to be there, but nothing's definite yet. =
Have the
airlines come up with a way to fly people around for free yet? =20
Sandy,
I don't know where you are coming from, but I got a great deal from South=
west Airline. Round trip for just over $200 from Baltimore MD. If you w=
atch their specials, you can get some really good deals. As little as $3=
9 one way on some flights. Here is the address for SW Airline: http://w=
ww.southwest.com/hotfares/promo.html I think the current specials are r=
unning until July 16th. I wouldn't have been able to go if I hadn't got=
ten a deal on the flight and found some roomies. =20
This will be my 1st HL convention and I am SO excited! Woo Hoo! Can't w=
ait to meet you all!
Toni 8)
=20
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 23:58:59 +0100
From: John Mosby <A.J.Mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Fanfic question following the discussion...
Hmmmmm. I sent the muppet post to the whole group, so no-one should have got
it as 'private'.
Confuddled.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Judith A. Schneider <judiths@fc.Capaccess.org>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [HL] Fanfic question following the discussion...
> A.J.Mosby@btinternet.com,Internet writes:
>
> Ummm. I think you intended this for Jette or the list. I did send you a
> private email, but not in response to this post. 8)
>
> Judy
>
> >What?
> >
> >They're real people?
> >
> >Damn. I just thought Jim Henson had taken a backwards step.
> >
> >;)
> >M-num-er-num Mosby
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
> >To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
> >Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 6:29 PM
> >Subject: Re: [HL] Fanfic question following the discussion...
> >
> >
> >> Marina Bailey
> >>
> >> > In general...
> >> >
> >> > Do you know that Real Person Slash (RPS) actually exists? Now,
> >> > those of us who like slash (like me <g>) can happily slash any
> >> > character we like, because... well, they're not real. We can
> >> > turn them into vampires, transplant them into the Star Trek
> >> > universe, have them having affairs with ten people at once (not
> >> > that *I* would write anything like that, you understand). And
> >> > we can say, well, it's fiction.
> >>
> >> Yeah, well, maybe some people have slight problem identifying
> >> the differences between "actors" "characters" and "real people"
> >> because my slash-crazy friend informs me that she's recently
> >> found slash stories based on "Changing Rooms" - a BBC
> >> home decorating program, which is presented by REAL
> >> PEOPLE, not actors and not characters.
> >>
> >> Jette
> >> Glory may be fleeting, but obscurity is forever!
> >> bosslady@scotlandmail.com
> >> http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html
> >
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:39:14 -0400
From: "Carrie V. Key" <reeana1@home.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
----- Original Message -----
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [HL] ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
> Marina--
> >Sharing fanfic is fun. If you hate fanfic, fine, don't
> > read it. But don't tell everyone else what to do.
>
> Well, I think I'm as entitled to my opinion about the rights & wrongs of
> fanfic as you are. And I AM telling fanfic writers that distributing
their
> work widely such as via the Internet is going to backfire, at some point.
> It's just too blatant.
>
> And, I also think ALL fans are punished for fanfic writers' selfish
> excesses, just as we are ALL punished when TPTB, actors, etc. react
> reasonably to things like stalkers.
>
Ok, I agree that it's impossible to keep TPTB and everyone else away from
Fanfic. But I just don't see where fan fic has ever caused someone to stalk
a celebrity. I have yet to hear anything of the like and the likely hood of
it happening isn't huge. Fans have been stalking celcbrities for one reason
or another for, lack of a beter term here, forever. Just becasue someone
reads fan fic dosen't mean they will go out and stalk the celebrity it was
based on, weather the real person, the character they played or one based on
them. And I know you aren't refering to just stalkers, but saying that fan
fic will cause someone to commit a crime in anyway shape or form is not
cool.
Your position that it's all OK, as long as TPTB can pretend
> they don't know about it doesn't make sense to me. Something like this is
> either right, or it is wrong. And, it isn't right, just because you like
> doing it.
What I would like to know is who in the entertainment business has said out
right its wrong? Sure George Lucas stomped out a few fan sites, more so ones
with fanfic, a while back, but then he started up his own thing off of the
main Star Wars site encourageing fan sites. Sure they have guidelines to
follow, but fan fic is allowed the last time I checked. I don't think TPTB
have come right out themselves and say it's wrong. Up to my knowledge, the
only time anyone has ever gotten really upity about fan fic was when the
fan(s) were making money off it. Simply distributing fan fic weather it be
e-mail, website or whatever is not illegal so long as money is not being
made w/o permission of the owner of the copyright. Please, correct me if I'm
wrong, but that is my understanding of it.
>
>
> John (on actors & slash)--
> >>>While most say
> they have no problem with a person's absolute right to have their own
sexual
> preference, it's a slightly different issue to be written about and placed
> in a slash situation by default.>>>
>
> Yes, it is. Because the actor chose & was paid & had input in portraying
> the character a given way. Fine. Then, the fanfic slash writer comes
along
> & changes that very dramatically. Often w/ the most explicit,
pornographic
> detail, sometimes throwing in S&M, extreme violence, & so on just for
"fun."
> All of which the actor had NO say in or control over. Yet, it's the
actor's
> very own face (& other body parts, of course) the reader _sees_ when
reading
> the story. And, I don't think it's unreasonable for an actor to think
those
> unofficial "performances" (w/ the slash elements, as well as anything else
> added on by the amateur writer) could color the public perception of
> them--really all-important to a public figure such as an actor--in much
the
> same way their _actual_ carefully chosen & enacted performances do.
Um, how is it any different when another actor takes over the role and
portrays that character entirely different from the original actor? Or a
writer on said show taking that character and making them do something out
of the ordinary? Yeah, sure they have permission and the stuff is normally
approved before it happens, but that's the only difference I see. That
doesn't make it any more right. And would have the same effect on the public
as you said fan fic would.
---
Carrie Key
reeana1@home.com
vatazes@home.com
http://members.home.net/reeana1/my_domain.htm
http://members.home.net/vatazes/welcome.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/hornygurlz/index.htm
LadyReeana, Ana Vatazes, Javina Jinn,
PWFC, OFEB, QJEB, Clan of the Eternally Clueless,
Proud Owner of 'Oasis Bathing Ardeth' Clone #1
"Tas! You Doorknob!" Flint Fireforge, Dragonlance
"I came, I saw, I broke a hip." Johnny Bravo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:42:46 -0400
From: "Carrie V. Key" <reeana1@home.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Roger Daltry on Witchblade
----- Original Message -----
From: <PWFan16@aol.com>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 3:04 PM
Subject: [HL] OT: Roger Daltry on Witchblade
> Not a bad show I have only seen the pilot and I think 2 eps.
>
> Being on TNT I always forget it is on but in this weeks EW mag it says
that
> Roger is guesting this Tuesday at 9PM EST
>
> Thought I would share
>
> Lora
Yeah! A reason to watch again! I've been trying to follow this show, but
it's hard being a hard core fan of the comic. But it has it's moments and
seeing Roger on it will make it worthwhile tuning in! Thanks!
---
Carrie Key
reeana1@home.com
vatazes@home.com
http://members.home.net/reeana1/my_domain.htm
http://members.home.net/vatazes/welcome.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/hornygurlz/index.htm
LadyReeana, Ana Vatazes, Javina Jinn,
PWFC, OFEB, QJEB, Clan of the Eternally Clueless,
Proud Owner of 'Oasis Bathing Ardeth' Clone #1
"Tas! You Doorknob!" Flint Fireforge, Dragonlance
"I came, I saw, I broke a hip." Johnny Bravo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:58:23 EDT
From: Dawn Lehman <USTADAWN@aol.com>
Subject: Re: AP as Bond?
In a message dated 7/9/01 2:47:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
aimer@warewolf.net writes:
>
Sorry, by IMHO - which everyone has - there still is NO comparison. AP has
John T. hands down.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:59:52 EDT
From: "Michele L. Kirksey" <MicheleShdwfx@cs.com>
Subject: Re: Highla-L' has been around for how long?
In a message dated 7/9/2001 3:45:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za writes:
> Like Debbie said, in two more years it will be a decade. And to think
> that during our first few knock-down, drag-out fights, people said
> that this kind of thing would destroy the list. Hah! Here many of us
> are, a bit battle-scarred, but still okay. And where are all the
> naysayers? Gone. They couldn't take it. Wimps. ;)
>
Ahhhh, memories. I remember well the damp, pink newbie I was and being silly
enough to get into a debate of some sort with one of the geezers. LOL! and I
thought I was a true "fan" - I learned fast though I think. :) So, how can
we find out how long we've been members of the list?
:) MicheleK
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:57:04 -0400
From: "Carrie V. Key" <reeana1@home.com>
Subject: Re: Fanfic question following the discussion...
----- Original Message -----
From: Tarryn Zank <Zankt@nu.ac.za>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [HL] Fanfic question following the discussion...
>
> I was jsut curious to see what the general feel was about this sort of
thing, and if anyone knows of any other instances where real people have
been involved in fanfic, and what has been the outcome (if any). Glad to see
some response, gotta keep the discussion going, the last one was a good one!
>
> T.
> (If I could only get my fingers to spell 'just' correctly! jsut once! *G*)
Actually there is a lot out there. Just about every music group you can
think of in Pop Music has fan fic. Nsync, Backstreet Boys, Brittany Spears
just to name a few. A few actors have some fan fic based on them as well,
not the characters they play. Oded Fehr, Arnold Vosloo, even Peter
Wingfield. It seems if you are a fan and can write (doesn't matter if your
good or not) you'll write fan fic (not everybody, but that seems to be the
craze anymore).
---
Carrie Key
reeana1@home.com
vatazes@home.com
http://members.home.net/reeana1/my_domain.htm
http://members.home.net/vatazes/welcome.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/hornygurlz/index.htm
LadyReeana, Ana Vatazes, Javina Jinn,
PWFC, OFEB, QJEB, Clan of the Eternally Clueless,
Proud Owner of 'Oasis Bathing Ardeth' Clone #1
"Tas! You Doorknob!" Flint Fireforge, Dragonlance
"I came, I saw, I broke a hip." Johnny Bravo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:04:14 -0400
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
At 07:39 PM 07/09/01, Carrie V. Key wrote:
>Ok, I agree that it's impossible to keep TPTB and everyone else away from
>Fanfic. But I just don't see where fan fic has ever caused someone to stalk
>a celebrity.
No one said that fanfic caused anyone to stalk a celebrity. Nina simply
used the stalker thing to show another instance where all fans are punished
for the actions of a few. She gave two separate examples -- fanfic and
stalkers. Never did she say that one does or can cause the other.
-- Sandy
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:10:08 -0400
From: Dragon Lady <dragonlady@darkmage.net>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
At 7/9/01 07:39 PM, you wrote:
>Simply distributing fan fic weather it be e-mail, website or whatever is
>not illegal so long as money is not being made w/o permission of the owner
>of the copyright. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but that is my
>understanding of it.
At no time is it LEGAL to infringe someone's trademark or copyright or
intellectual property rights ... this goes for artists, writers, musicians,
scientists, lawyers, doctors, indian chiefs, etc.
That ridiculous disclaimer that most fan fic carries about "not making any
money" doesn't mean anything in court (or morally for that matter). If a
graphic artist had a work taken and used by someone who wasn't "making any
money" using it, does it make it any less ILLEGAL? Of course not ...
Besides not all compensation can be measured in monetary terms, some may
say that the positive feedback a writer receives from readers is a reward.
Now I don't object to anyone who wants to write/distribute fanfic (slash or
otherwise). I DO object to those who try and somehow "justify" their right
to do it.
My only point when I originally posted was that you can NOT legally
copyright or in any other way protect work that is in ANY way infringing on
another's work. And you can't claim *FAIR USE* of a character, plot, idea,
universe, etc., you can cite specific parts of a work with proper
attribution (and there are limits on how much in the fair use doctrine),
but that's it.
And now I believe I have officially posted more in the past few days that I
have in the past 4 years on this list ;-)
------------
Peace and Laughter,
--DL
The light at the end of the tunnel may be an oncoming dragon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 21:48:04 -0400
From: "Carrie V. Key" <reeana1@home.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@EARTHLINK.NET>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [HL] ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
> At 07:39 PM 07/09/01, Carrie V. Key wrote:
>
> >Ok, I agree that it's impossible to keep TPTB and everyone else away from
> >Fanfic. But I just don't see where fan fic has ever caused someone to
stalk
> >a celebrity.
>
> No one said that fanfic caused anyone to stalk a celebrity. Nina simply
> used the stalker thing to show another instance where all fans are
punished
> for the actions of a few. She gave two separate examples -- fanfic and
> stalkers. Never did she say that one does or can cause the other.
>
> -- Sandy
Ok, I'm a big girl here, so I will admit that I did read that post wrong. My
apologies. I went and re-read what Nina had written. But I have a question
to what she meant by "And, I also think ALL fans are punished for fanfic
writers' selfishexcesses, just as we are ALL punished when TPTB, actors,
etc. react
reasonably to things like stalkers." When have we been punished due to fan
fic? I don't recall ever hearing anything about that. I'm curious to know.
---
Carrie Key
reeana1@home.com
vatazes@home.com
http://members.home.net/reeana1/my_domain.htm
http://members.home.net/vatazes/welcome.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/hornygurlz/index.htm
LadyReeana, Ana Vatazes, Javina Jinn,
PWFC, OFEB, QJEB, Clan of the Eternally Clueless,
Proud Owner of 'Oasis Bathing Ardeth' Clone #1
"Tas! You Doorknob!" Flint Fireforge, Dragonlance
"I came, I saw, I broke a hip." Johnny Bravo
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 9 Jul 2001 (#2001-186)
***********************************************