HIGHLA-L Digest - 7 Jul 2001 (#2001-182)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@LISTS.PSU.EDU)
Sat, 7 Jul 2001 22:00:02 -0400
There are 19 messages totalling 777 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. ATTN: All Fan Fic writers (19)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 15:45:05 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
In a message dated 7/7/01 2:37:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lloschin@sprynet.com writes:
<< It's certainly been done before... there's a published romance novel
out there that started its life as a fanfic story in another fandom.
And of course that novel is entitled to complete copyright protection. >>
There are many such stories out there. I know of at least five just off of
the top of my head. There are many authors who started out as fanfic writers,
who took their fan fiction stories, filed off the serial numbers, changed the
names to protect the not to innocent, and published. There are also many
authors who have written with very specific avatars in mind for characters in
their original works.
For instance:
Kill the Dead by Tanith Lee. Main character of Parl Dro (Paul Darrow, aka
Kerr Avon)
Jean Lorrah, who wrote Blakes 7 avatars into several of her Star Trek novels
Susan Matthews, whose science fiction series started out life as Star Wars
There are many others. There was even a romance novel I read some time back
with characters who, to a Highlander fan, were *obviously* somewhat based on
Duncan, Richie and Tessa.
Annie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 20:54:27 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
> I think my last message got sent before I was finished. Oh, well. A
character
> is basically a "name." You can not copyright a character. Really.
>
> Taken from a copyright website:
>
> These are items that by their very nature are not eligible for copyright
> protection:
> Ideas
Not unless your idea is given form and is published, written down, performed
or clearly identified as an idea you had and DEVELOPED. ie: a hero who kills
vampires isn't sufficient. A girl called Buffy Summers who kills vampires IS
protected.
> Facts
A Fact is a fact. A statistic is a statistic. A cigar is just a cigar.
> Titles
Okay. Can't stop. Got to run out and start work on a film. I'm calling it
Star Wars: The Phantom Menace. Let's hope Big George's lawyers agree with
you.
> Names
My hero will be Luke Skywalker. I'll be sure to tell Big George that this
was in no way meant to link with any simialr character in his story.
Besides, that'sNOT a light-saber, it's a.....er.....plasma-foil.
> Short phrases
No, but why would I want to? (tm John Mosby 2001)
> Blank forms
Dang. I had this whole blank fan-form I was going to distribute. I'd have
made a mint.
And for the record, a character may be a 'name' in your definition, but in
my book it's also linked with a series of characteristics, situations and an
established univese (at least in any successful and well written series).
Hence you might be able to find an original novel out there with a character
called Duncan MacLeod and there would be no problem. However if he swings a
sword around, cannot die unless you take his head and has a libido the size
of Fort William, then you better have Johnny Cochran going into bat for you.
John.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 15:59:50 -0400
From: Trilby <trilby23@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
From: Ashton7@aol.com
> I think my last message got sent before I was finished. Oh, well. A character
> is basically a "name." You can not copyright a character. Really.
>
> Taken from a copyright website:
>
> These are items that by their very nature are not eligible for copyright
> protection:
> Ideas
> Facts
> Titles
> Names
> Short phrases
OK, let me see if I understand this.
If I publish a novel with a long-haired, brown-eyed Scottish hero
who happens to be named Duncan MacLeod, but don't use
anything from the "Highlander" universe, I'm not committing
copyright or trademark fraud.
But if I publish a novel with that same hero I just described, and I
use recognizable elements of the "Highlander" universe, then TPTB
will have a slam-dunk lawsuit against me.
And if I publish a novel with no recognizable character names, but
with significant elements of the "Highlander" universe, then TPTB
could have a winnable lawsuit against me, depending on how
closely my universe resembles the "Highlander" universe.
And if I publish a novel titled "Highlander", which has no relation
whatsoever to any recognizable characters from the movies or the
TV series, and nothing to do with an Immie universe at all, then I'm
probably safe.
Is that all correct?
-------------------- Trilby
"Please don't tell my mother I'm a social worker. She thinks
I play the piano in a whorehouse."
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 21:02:57 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
I'm guessing I'm going to have to nix that novel I was writing which centres
around a sword-weilding social worker who throws pianos at hookers.
Dang.
Back to the Blank Form idea.
AJM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trilby" <trilby23@bellsouth.net>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: [HL] ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
> From: Ashton7@aol.com
>
> > I think my last message got sent before I was finished. Oh, well. A
character
> > is basically a "name." You can not copyright a character. Really.
> >
> > Taken from a copyright website:
> >
> > These are items that by their very nature are not eligible for
copyright
> > protection:
> > Ideas
> > Facts
> > Titles
> > Names
> > Short phrases
>
> OK, let me see if I understand this.
>
> If I publish a novel with a long-haired, brown-eyed Scottish hero
> who happens to be named Duncan MacLeod, but don't use
> anything from the "Highlander" universe, I'm not committing
> copyright or trademark fraud.
>
> But if I publish a novel with that same hero I just described, and I
> use recognizable elements of the "Highlander" universe, then TPTB
> will have a slam-dunk lawsuit against me.
>
> And if I publish a novel with no recognizable character names, but
> with significant elements of the "Highlander" universe, then TPTB
> could have a winnable lawsuit against me, depending on how
> closely my universe resembles the "Highlander" universe.
>
> And if I publish a novel titled "Highlander", which has no relation
> whatsoever to any recognizable characters from the movies or the
> TV series, and nothing to do with an Immie universe at all, then I'm
> probably safe.
>
> Is that all correct?
>
>
> -------------------- Trilby
> "Please don't tell my mother I'm a social worker. She thinks
> I play the piano in a whorehouse."
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 16:11:12 -0400
From: Trilby <trilby23@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
> I'm guessing I'm going to have to nix that novel I was writing which centres
> around a sword-weilding social worker who throws pianos at hookers.
>
> Dang.
ROTFL!! Not if you get published first, sweetie, and I'd say you
have a good chance at that!!
-------------------- Trilby
"Please don't tell my mother I'm a social worker. She thinks
I play the piano in a whorehouse."
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 21:22:42 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
Once Impact, Dreamwatch, The Big Issue articles are all done, I'll think
about it.
AJM
(Thinking of getting someone to copy my work and give me half the profit)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 13:30:51 -0700
From: Lynn <lloschin@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
From: <Ashton7@aol.com>
> << This is not a grey issue ... characters that belong to someone
else can not
> be used without permission ... if you do, you're committing
> copyright/trademark infringement (provided the works aren't in the
public
> domain). Titles can not be copyrighted, characters and plots can.
>>
>
> I think my last message got sent before I was finished. Oh, well. A
character
> is basically a "name." You can not copyright a character. Really.
But Annie, a character is *not* just a "name". I agree that you
cannot copyright a *name only.* But once you combine the name with
other elements that make it the character (the characters traits,
background, history), it's really not that clear.
Characters can have the same names as other characters that have
existed before... I could write a book and name my lead character Anne
Lindsay, if I really wanted to. If she was a farmer on the moon
Europa in the year 2515 in my sci-fi novel, no problem. But if she
was a doctor in a pacific northwest city in the 1990's with a daughter
named Mary and an ex-boyfriend named Duncan MacLeod, then I'm not
creating a different character with the same name... I'm using the
same character (not merely the same name), and that character belongs
to the Highlander universe. There is a huge distinction there.
The reason you can't copyright a name (or short title) is because
inevitably the same ones will show up by coincidence or even homage.
That isn't the same as using the whole of the character.
>You needn't take my word for things. Refer to copyright law and
intellectual
>propery lawyers for yourself:
Okay, done that :)
Lynn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:13:53 EDT
From: GuinevereM@aol.com
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
Stepping out of lurker mode for one moment to put four years of a degree to
good use for once (thereby maybe actually justifying the s**tload of students
loans I'm now paying off...)
In a message dated 07/07/2001 14:54:40 Central Daylight Time,
a.j.mosby@btinternet.com writes:
> Okay. Can't stop. Got to run out and start work on a film. I'm calling it
> Star Wars: The Phantom Menace. Let's hope Big George's lawyers agree with
> you.
>
>
If I could find my journalism law book I could quote ya the actual statute,
but titles are UNcopyrightable. Now, I'm almost positive that Star Wars is
trademarked, so you might have some problem from Georgie there. Same with
names like Luke Skywalker. I'd bet money George Lucas has that one
trademarked. But the title and name themselves are not copyrighted.
AW
guineverem@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:18:55 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
In a message dated 7/7/01 3:35:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lloschin@sprynet.com writes:
<< > OK, you knew *someone* was going to ask, and it might as well
> be curious me. What novel, what author, what fandom?
Sorry... not telling. I doubt the author wants it to be public
knowledge. >>
Dunno about the romance novel, but I *do* know a famous piece of fanfic
written by a STAR WARS fanfic writer who changed the names and the SW
references and published her story as an SF mainstream paperback. If I
remember right, the double irony is that her 'original' main character is
actually based on Ilya Kuryakin, from yet another fandom, whom she
transplanted into the SW universe.
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:24:55 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
In a message dated 7/7/01 3:54:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
a.j.mosby@btinternet.com writes:
<<
And for the record, a character may be a 'name' in your definition, but in
my book it's also linked with a series of characteristics, situations and an
established univese (at least in any successful and well written series).
Hence you might be able to find an original novel out there with a character
called Duncan MacLeod and there would be no problem. However if he swings a
sword around, cannot die unless you take his head and has a libido the size
of Fort William, then you better have Johnny Cochran going into bat for you.
>>
Check under "Lorenzo Lamas: Recent Projects." Except for the libido part and
the name, you've got HIGHLANDER redux.
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 22:26:02 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
> If I could find my journalism law book I could quote ya the actual
statute,
> but titles are UNcopyrightable. Now, I'm almost positive that Star Wars
is
> trademarked, so you might have some problem from Georgie there. Same with
> names like Luke Skywalker. I'd bet money George Lucas has that one
> trademarked. But the title and name themselves are not copyrighted.
>
> AW
> guineverem@aol.com
No offense intended, but if I'm going to get my ass (tm) dragged over the
hot coals (c) then I'm less concerned about whether it's over trademarks,
copyrights or registered properties. It's how much it's going to cost me and
whether they have a case.
In other words John Mosby's: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace would be unlikely
to see the light of day and would certainly be a lost cause.
I go back to my main point. You can argue legal terms all you want, but
using other people's intellectual properties is not a given right and though
it rarely leads to litigation with regards to fanfic, that doesn't make it
can't be.
Write fanfic. Enjoy it. Practise your craft. But don't complain if the
people who created the characters are keeping a discreet eye on what you are
doing to the characters and situations that they invested time and several
hundreds of million dollars in. Write all you want, but stamp too loudly and
you may get stomped on too.
Didn't say I thought said big stomping would be wise, just that it would be
very legal.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:26:57 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
In a message dated 7/7/01 3:45:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ashton7@aol.com
writes:
<< There are many others. There was even a romance novel I read some time back
with characters who, to a Highlander fan, were *obviously* somewhat based on
Duncan, Richie and Tessa. >>
For those who are curious, that would be LORD OF FOREVER, by Patricia
Simpson. It's currently out of print, but used copies show up on Amazon.com
and eBay.
Leah CWPack
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:29:29 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
In a message dated 7/7/01 4:03:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
a.j.mosby@btinternet.com writes:
<< I'm guessing I'm going to have to nix that novel I was writing which
centres
around a sword-weilding social worker who throws pianos at hookers. >>
Hey!!! That's MY idea! Schwartzenegger and I just closed a movie deal for it.
Back off!
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 22:32:25 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
I'm guessing they were Verrrrrrrrrrrrrrry close to the wire on that one.
However they changed names, how someone was immortal,the relationships (to a
point). Essentially they took an *idea* and reshaped it so - legally - it
was just different enough. That happens all the time and it's up to the
lawyers and writers to decide if the line has been crossed. It doesn't
negate the line itself.
It's certainly more different than a fanfic with Duncan MacLeod of the Clan
MacLeod, Casandra and Methos as the central characters.
Just
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bizarro7@aol.com>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [HL] ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
> In a message dated 7/7/01 3:54:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> a.j.mosby@btinternet.com writes:
>
> <<
> And for the record, a character may be a 'name' in your definition, but
in
> my book it's also linked with a series of characteristics, situations and
an
> established univese (at least in any successful and well written series).
> Hence you might be able to find an original novel out there with a
character
> called Duncan MacLeod and there would be no problem. However if he swings
a
> sword around, cannot die unless you take his head and has a libido the
size
> of Fort William, then you better have Johnny Cochran going into bat for
you.
> >>
>
> Check under "Lorenzo Lamas: Recent Projects." Except for the libido part
and
> the name, you've got HIGHLANDER redux.
>
> Leah
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:37:28 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
In a message dated 7/7/01 5:32:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
a.j.mosby@btinternet.com writes:
<< I'm guessing they were Verrrrrrrrrrrrrrry close to the wire on that one.
However they changed names, how someone was immortal,the relationships (to a
point). Essentially they took an *idea* and reshaped it so - legally - it
was just different enough. That happens all the time and it's up to the
lawyers and writers to decide if the line has been crossed. It doesn't
negate the line itself.
It's certainly more different than a fanfic with Duncan MacLeod of the Clan
MacLeod, Casandra and Methos as the central characters. >>
Oooh, where? Where? There can't be enough of those.
Leah CWPack
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:55:50 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
In a message dated 7/7/01 4:32:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lloschin@sprynet.com writes:
<< Characters can have the same names as other characters that have
existed before... I could write a book and name my lead character Anne
Lindsay, if I really wanted to. If she was a farmer on the moon
Europa in the year 2515 in my sci-fi novel, no problem. But if she
was a doctor in a pacific northwest city in the 1990's with a daughter
named Mary and an ex-boyfriend named Duncan MacLeod, then I'm not
creating a different character with the same name... I'm using the
same character (not merely the same name), and that character belongs
to the Highlander universe. There is a huge distinction there. >>
I'm not disagreeing with you that there is an intellectual property issue
surrounding these kinds of things. But the fact remains that you can not
copyright a "character." You can copyright the work they appear in and argue
that anyone using that character has created a deriviative work without your
permission... but that really isn't the same thing as saying you own a
copyright on a "character." I know that's splitting hairs a bit, but isnt'
that what lawyers do? ;-) (No insult intended. I started on the path to
lawyerdom myself, yea many a year ago... just took a detour instead.)
Annie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 13:28:26 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
John wrote--
>>> If YOU create a character and another fan uses it without your
permission and in a way/style/attitude/sexuality you never intended, you'd
be annoyed too.>>>
Exactly.
Fanfic writers who put their stuff on the net or otherwise distribute it,
whether for the "profit" of peer acknowledgment or for actual bucks, are
stealing another person's intellectual property, often twisting it, & always
using for their own purposes & gain something they didn't create--all in
violation of the law (whether it is trademark, copyright or whatever--not to
mention the morality of it all). And they are thereby cheating & damaging
the very people--the franchise creators, actors, etc.--they purportedly
admire so very much that they just _have to_ take a stab at writing in that
universe. To me, it is a totally illogical response to finding a fictional
universe one admires.
Carrie wrote--
>>>Fan fic is harmless and I've seen where it can help increase the fan base
of
some shows, movies or books. Just like everything on our wonderful planet,
there is a good side to it and a bad side.>>>
As you say--you're a fanfic writer. Thus, your understanding of things like
fan bases is skewed & your opinion on this is biased. Now, if anyone has a
statement from DPP (or other franchise owners) calling fanfic "harmless,"
applauding it, or even OK'g it, _that_ would be relevant. That would be
permission.
That's why fanfic writers giving credit to franchise owners w/ those routine
acknowledgments isn't enough to excuse what they do; giving acknowledgment
is not at all the same as having permission from the universe owners.
Annie--
>A character is basically a "name."
Only to a fanfic writer, who can depend on her readership being familiar w/
the all-important character _traits_ painstakingly written & portrayed w/in
the franchise & so skip merrily over that rather crucial element of fiction
writing.
John again--
>>>party-popper and I've often gone toe-to-toe
with the lieks of Donna and Gillian on the common-sense side of the fanfic
equation and the stupidity of silencing a useful section of the
fan-base...but they have every right to do so if they think it affects their
original product in a negative way.>>>
And we all know the sub-category of fanfic most likely to be seen as doing
that....
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:14:50 -0700
From: Lynn <lloschin@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
From: <Ashton7@aol.com>
> In a message dated 7/7/01 4:32:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> lloschin@sprynet.com writes:
>
> << Characters can have the same names as other characters that have
> existed before... I could write a book and name my lead character
Anne
> Lindsay, if I really wanted to. If she was a farmer on the moon
> Europa in the year 2515 in my sci-fi novel, no problem. But if
she
> was a doctor in a pacific northwest city in the 1990's with a
daughter
> named Mary and an ex-boyfriend named Duncan MacLeod, then I'm not
> creating a different character with the same name... I'm using the
> same character (not merely the same name), and that character
belongs
> to the Highlander universe. There is a huge distinction there. >>
>
> I'm not disagreeing with you that there is an intellectual property
issue
> surrounding these kinds of things. But the fact remains that you can
not
> copyright a "character."
Honestly, really, it doesn't. That just isn't a "fact." The law is
*very* unclear on this point and almost a century old. There are only
a couple of cases on the topic and their guidance is at best
confusing, so an unequivocal statement that "you can't copyright a
character" (the whole of the character, not just the name) simply
isn't true. At best, it's *unclear* if you can copyright a character.
Honest, I've read the cases, and that's the only reasonable conclusion
at this point in time.
>You can copyright the work they appear in and argue
> that anyone using that character has created a deriviative work
without your
> permission... but that really isn't the same thing as saying you own
a
> copyright on a "character."
Actually, IMO it is -- because sequels using the same characters are
an enormous part of what defines derivative works. And what is
fanfic, anyway, except a derivative work? That's the whole concept of
the "universe" even if you don't use the same characters. IMO that's
exactly what fanfic is. I happen to think it's a fair use,
personally, if it's not done for profit -- but I don't think that
means you get independent protection from others "infringing" on that
work, which is how this whole topic started.
Lynn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 21:20:37 -0400
From: mousehounde <mousehounde@datalinkc.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geiger" <geiger@maui.net>
<snip>
Exactly.
Fanfic writers who put their stuff on the net or otherwise distribute it,
whether for the "profit" of peer acknowledgment or for actual bucks, are
stealing another person's intellectual property, often twisting it, & always
using for their own purposes & gain something they didn't create--all in
violation of the law (whether it is trademark, copyright or whatever--not to
mention the morality of it all). And they are thereby cheating & damaging
the very people--the franchise creators, actors, etc.--they purportedly
admire so very much that they just _have to_ take a stab at writing in that
universe. To me, it is a totally illogical response to finding a fictional
universe one admires.
------
I am guessing that you don't care for fan fiction<g>
------
<more snipping>
John again--
>>>party-popper and I've often gone toe-to-toe
with the lieks of Donna and Gillian on the common-sense side of the fanfic
equation and the stupidity of silencing a useful section of the
fan-base...but they have every right to do so if they think it affects their
original product in a negative way.>>>
And we all know the sub-category of fanfic most likely to be seen as doing
that....
-----
What is it that we all are supposed to know?
mouse
----
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 7 Jul 2001 (#2001-182)
***********************************************