HIGHLA-L Digest - 27 May 2006 to 28 May 2006 (#2006-92)
HIGHLA-L automatic digest system (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
Sun, 28 May 2006 22:00:06 -0400
There are 15 messages totalling 604 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. HL Comix - Connor Fans! (15)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 09:53:08 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
From: "Wendy" <Immortals_Incorporated@cox.net>
>> (I know we would have missed the swirly quickening,
>> but if you just love that to pieces, maybe a Silas &
>> Caspian double-Q could have happened instead.)
>
> I could have done without the homo-erotic double swirly Quickening.
>
Some people see "homo-erotica" in the strangest places. Double
Quickenings, painting noses......... maybe I'm dense, but I tend
only to see erotica in erotic places.
Jette Goldie
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 13:10:33 +0200
From: TMar <tmar@polka.co.za>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
>Some people see "homo-erotica" in the strangest places. Double
>Quickenings, painting noses......... maybe I'm dense, but I tend
>only to see erotica in erotic places.
Don't be so limited in your thinking! With a little imagination, you can
see slash *everywhere*. Which explains why many of my friends
now avoid me... ;)
(Actually, wasn't it Peter Wingfield who said the swirly Q was
homoerotic? It just looked cheesy to me.)
- Marina.
\\ "And we are scatterlings of Africa on a ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// journey to the stars. Far below we leave || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ forever dreams of what we were." - Juluka ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===============tmar@polka.co.za=============||````````````````\\
\\============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie===========//
"You know, Kent, it's always been my policy to back my reporters one
thousand percent. I mean, if you went up there and opened those
windows and told me that you could fly, I'd back you up. I'd miss
you, but I'd back you up." - Perry White; Lois & Clark.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 14:20:07 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
From: "TMar" <tmar@POLKA.CO.ZA>
> (Actually, wasn't it Peter Wingfield who said the swirly Q was
> homoerotic? It just looked cheesy to me.)
>
Peter seems to enjoy playing to his gallery.
Jette Goldie
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
("reply to" is spamblocked)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 10:14:44 -0400
From: Wendy <Immortals_Incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
I said:
> > I could have done without the homo-erotic double swirly Quickening.
Jette replies:
> Some people see "homo-erotica" in the strangest places. Double
> Quickenings, painting noses......... maybe I'm dense, but I tend
> only to see erotica in erotic places.
Oh, I'm pretty dense too <g>. I thought the double swirly Quickening
just looked like bad CGI but I was informed by those who know such
things that it as clearly homoerotic.
Marina says:
>Don't be so limited in your thinking! With a little imagination,
>you can see slash *everywhere*. Which explains why many
> of my friends now avoid me... ;)
Without reopening that particular can of worms too far, I will say that
finding "slash" often requires a radical reading of the subtext on par
with saying that *everything* is actually about pea soup.
Marina:
>(Actually, wasn't it Peter Wingfield who said the swirly Q was
>homoerotic?
Jette:
>Peter seems to enjoy playing to his gallery.
I agree...which is why latching on to something that an actor said at a
convention and declaring it to be canon is a bad idea. In fact, latching
onto anything said at a convention by anyone - be it the producer,
writer or director- is a bad idea. People will say the damnedest things
when in front of an adoring audience and after a few drinks <EG>
Then Marina admits:
>It just looked cheesy to me.)
Yeah. Nowadays when I watch HL, I tend to fast-forward through all the
Quickenings.
Wendy(Speaking of "The Source", will ****** get ******' Quickening
because of proximity during the battle?)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 15:34:47 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
From: "Wendy" <Immortals_Incorporated@COX.NET>
> Without reopening that particular can of worms too far, I will say that
> finding "slash" often requires a radical reading of the subtext on par
> with saying that *everything* is actually about pea soup.
<SNERK!>
Jette Goldie
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 17:26:01 +0200
From: TMar <tmar@polka.co.za>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
>Peter seems to enjoy playing to his gallery.
Doesn't he just? Some actors know when to say things and what to say.
Gotta admire that.
- Marina.
\\ "So what do you wanna do?" ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// "I'm not sure... as long as it doesn't || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ involve putting on a suit and doing a lot ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// of flying." - Chloe and Clark; Smallville ||````````````````\\
\\==============tmar@polka.co.za=============||,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,//
//============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==========\\
"Why does everybody have to be an elf in fanfic, anyway? Like these
people don't have enough problems." - McSwain (The Fanfic Symposium)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 17:37:04 +0200
From: TMar <tmar@polka.co.za>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
>Without reopening that particular can of worms too far, I will say
>that finding "slash" often requires a radical reading of the subtext
>on par with saying that *everything* is actually about pea soup.
Subtext? Wendy, you're giving slash fans way too much credit. We
don't *care* about things like subtext! We'll slash anybody. (Well,
I say "we" although I only have a few pairings that I like, but really,
I can't exclude myself.) And have! People have slashed Michael
Knight and KITT! (I wish I was joking.) People slash Harry Potter
and *Snape*! Snape! (I kind of like those.) There's no logic in
that. Logic? Ha - we don't need no stinking logic!!
>I agree...which is why latching on to something that an actor said at a
>convention and declaring it to be canon is a bad idea. In fact, latching
>onto anything said at a convention by anyone - be it the producer,
>writer or director- is a bad idea.
Well, if we're going into Literary Aesthetics, I'm of the school that
says that everything you need to understand any text (be it writing,
TV, film, whatever) should be *in* the text. If you have to go to outside
sources, the writers/creators/producers/whomever haven't done their
job.
A TV series should be understood without needing to ask TPTB what
they meant by certain things. And yes, sometimes people will come up
with radical readings of the text, but that doesn't make them right. What
most people get out of any text is usually what was intended.
So, yes, it's nice to know what TPTB intended (which we find out by
reading interviews, etc) but it's not necessary to know. A person should
be able to know just by reading/watching.
- Marina. (Is Babylon 5 the one exception?) (I'm not really a fan of
exceptions.) (I never read anything jms said and I still understood B5
fine.)
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\===============tmar@polka.co.za==============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie===||````````````````\\
Discussing Voyager:
Me: What happened to Seven?
My brother: She stumbled into a plot device.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 16:50:26 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
From: "TMar" <tmar@POLKA.CO.ZA>
> Subtext? Wendy, you're giving slash fans way too much credit. We
> don't *care* about things like subtext! We'll slash anybody. (Well,
> I say "we" although I only have a few pairings that I like, but really,
> I can't exclude myself.) And have! People have slashed Michael
> Knight and KITT! (I wish I was joking.)
I know you are not. I also know that neither was the writer of
that piece. She really did see "subtext" and deep romantic
relationship going on between the car and its driver.
She was very hurt when she was told it was a "hilarious comedy
spoof on the slash genre".
(but you'll never look at a puddle of oil beneath a car in the
same way again)
Jette Goldie
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 17:56:33 +0200
From: TMar <tmar@polka.co.za>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
>I know you are not. I also know that neither was the writer of
>that piece. She really did see "subtext" and deep romantic
>relationship going on between the car and its driver.
Really? Well, I have never read that story, I just heard about it.
I don't suppose you know where I could get hold of it? (Seriously.
I like to read unconventional pairings sometimes.)
>She was very hurt when she was told it was a "hilarious comedy
>spoof on the slash genre".
I'll read it and not think that, I promise. I've read weirder stuff.
>(but you'll never look at a puddle of oil beneath a car in the
>same way again)
OMG!!!
- Marina. (Really. I've wanted to read that story since I first heard
about it.) (I was a serious Knight Rider fan as a teen. I still have all
my pictures and everything.) (I can draw a perfect picture of KITT
from the front.) (Yes, I know that's very sad.) (Hey, I loved KITT!)
\\\ "I did it all to myself, I have no one else ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// to blame. And I cannot regret one single || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ moment of it." - Colleen McCullough ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//================tmar@polka.co.za=============||````````````````\\
\\=============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie===========//
"What about the fact they thought we were gay?"
"Adds mystery." - Wesley and Angel; "Expecting" (Angel)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 17:15:44 -0500
From: Kamil <kamilaa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
<Wendy>
Without reopening that particular can of worms too far, I will say that
finding "slash" often requires a radical reading of the subtext on par
with saying that *everything* is actually about pea soup.
And then there's the opposite problem - say, those who were shocked,
or appalled, or said it "came out of nowhere!!" when Willow chose Tara
over Oz in "New Moon Rising".
Leading to one of my favorite Joss quotes ever:
" It's the not the bigotry that offends me, it's the lack of filmic insight.
Okay, and the bigotry."
And I remember some of the very same people who are always up in arms
about seeing slash "everywhere" here being up in arms about Willow
suddenly being gay too.
Coincidence?
Heck, have the entire quote:
"Okay, let's do this. For real: how @#$%&ing disappointed was I in the
American public after Tuesday night? Of course I realize the rabidly
homophobic posting contingent represents a smaller percentage of
Americans than the EVIL GAYS they were posting about, but that's not
it. It's the fact that everyone went nuts about it THIS WEEK, when
this has clearly been going on for MONTHS?
Did anyone see the spell scene in episode 16? Hello? It's the not the
bigotry that offends me, it's the lack of filmic insight.
Okay, and the bigotry."
I feel so much perfectly sane devotion towards him it's not even funny. <3
--
Kamil
Crassus: Do you consider the eating of oysters to be moral and the
eating of snails to be immoral?
Antoninus: No, master.
Crassus: Of course not. It is all a matter of taste, isn't it?
Antoninus: Yes, master.
Crassus: And taste is not the same as appetite, and therefore not a
question of morals.
Antoninus: It could be argued so, master.
Crassus: My robe, Antoninus. My taste includes . . . both snails and oysters.
Spartacus
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 17:23:47 -0400
From: Wendy <Immortals_Incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
Having apparently opened that can of worms, I said:
> >Without reopening that particular can of worms too far, I will say
> >that finding "slash" often requires a radical reading of the subtext
> >on par with saying that *everything* is actually about pea soup.
Marina:
> Subtext? Wendy, you're giving slash fans way too much credit. We
> don't *care* about things like subtext! We'll slash anybody.
Oh, I know. But I suppose I separate slash "just for the hell of it"
from slash "where an argument can be made that some hint of mutual
attraction appears if one looks really really hard while squinting and
taking powerful hallucinogens".
> Well, if we're going into Literary Aesthetics, I'm of the school that
> says that everything you need to understand any text (be it writing,
> TV, film, whatever) should be *in* the text. If you have to
> go to outside sources, the writers/creators/producers/whomever
> haven't done their job.
I largely agree. If the medium is a TV, then one shouldn't have to
refer to movies, books, convention stories or DVDs to understand what is
happening and why. I understand that various constraints (money, time,
actor's ad lib, etc) can mean that what appears on screen is less clear
than what TPTB intended when they started but, overall, what is shown is
what everyone is stuck with. If it looks like Holy Ground, don't try to
explain it away months later with the lame "it can't be HG because we
wouldn't have done that."
OTOH, I have sympathy for authors who had one thing in mind when they
wrote and discover that readers find something quite the opposite. Maybe
a poem about trees is *just* about *trees* even if readers insist on
finding commentary on modern society or whatever. I suppose it is
because the written word is more open to interpretation that a visual
representation ... at least if one is talking about weekly TV.
> So, yes, it's nice to know what TPTB intended (which we find out by
> reading interviews, etc) but it's not necessary to know. A
> person should be able to know just by reading/watching.
The problem with reading interviews and the like that appear *after* the
TV show or movie has appeared is that TPTB too often alter the facts to
fit what they now need to explain. Was something meant to be funny or do
TPTB just say that now because everyone laughed? Was a bit of
homoeroticism intended or did TPTB discover it 5 minutes after the fans
did? Show me contemporaneous notes indicting that X was intended and
I'll believe it (maybe)- show me an interview done 6 months
post-production and I am skeptical.
> (Is Babylon 5 the one exception?) (I'm not really a fan of
> exceptions.) (I never read anything jms said and I still understood B5
> fine.)
The exception in that one must read and reference other materials to
understand it? I don't see that. One probably had to watch from the
very beginning to get the full impact of the series ( true of most
serials) but I don't think one had to read any of the books or frequent
the jms/B5 forums to understand the plot or the bigger issues it touched
on.
Wendy(Why the hell are B5 dvds still so expensive?)(Blast!)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 17:23:47 -0400
From: Wendy <Immortals_Incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
> > People have slashed Michael
> > Knight and KITT! (I wish I was joking.)
Jette:
> (but you'll never look at a puddle of oil beneath a car in the
> same way again)
Ugh.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 17:23:47 -0400
From: Wendy <Immortals_Incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
>People have slashed Michael Knight and KITT!
Jette:
> (but you'll never look at a puddle of oil beneath a car in the
> same way again)
Ugh. Just....ugh.
Wendy(Surely the end of the world is nigh.)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 18:46:10 -0400
From: Wendy <Immortals_Incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
Me:
> Without reopening that particular can of worms too far, I
> will say that finding "slash" often requires a radical reading of the
> subtext on par with saying that *everything* is actually about pea
soup.
Kamil:
> And then there's the opposite problem - say, those who were shocked,
> or appalled, or said it "came out of nowhere!!" when Willow chose Tara
> over Oz in "New Moon Rising".
Oh sure...it can work that way too. I'm sure there are people who would
swear that Will (of "Will & Grace") wasn't really gay. (OK, bad choice
since he was apparently neutered and in love with Grace)
> And I remember some of the very same people who are always up in arms
> about seeing slash "everywhere" here being up in arms about Willow
> suddenly being gay too.
>
> Coincidence?
I had issues about how Willow was portrayed but it wasn't because I
didn't want to see gays on TV or even see Willow as gay. I though that
more should have been made of the fact that she decided she was gay at
exactly the moment her male lover disappointed her and left town. *Not*
that there hadn't been hints that she could be gay (at least in an
alternate universe) but it was all a tad convenient for my taste.
Joss is quoted:
>It's the fact that everyone went nuts about it THIS WEEK, when
> this has clearly been going on for MONTHS?
>
> Did anyone see the spell scene in episode 16? Hello? It's the not the
> bigotry that offends me, it's the lack of filmic insight.
>
> Okay, and the bigotry."
The spell scene in episode 16 is one thing (pretty damn obvious!) but I
remember the discussions after "Hush" and whether Tara and Willow's hand
holding was a clear sign of impending gayness <eg> because they held
hands with fingers interlocked instead of palm across palm. I felt,
based on what we knew at that moment, that it was ambiguous and that
later episodes could go either way depending on what Joss wanted to do
with the story.
> I feel so much perfectly sane devotion towards him it's not
> even funny. <3
I'd have felt better about the story line if Tara wasn't the one who had
to die in order to send Willow over the deep end. Given how little
Xander did in later years, killing Xander and having Tara be the one to
bring Willow back from the edge would have been more interesting. Then
again, I think Willow's character was trashed more than once in the
later years.
Wendy( It would have been funny if Xander had turned out to be gay
too.)(There were, after all, hints about that too.)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 18:22:32 -0500
From: Kamil <kamilaa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
<Wendy>
I'd have felt better about the story line if Tara wasn't the one who
had to die in order to send Willow over the deep end. Given how
little Xander did in later years, killing Xander and having Tara be
the one to bring Willow back from the edge would have been more
interesting. Then again, I think Willow's character was trashed more
than once in the later years.
<me>
I wishwishwish Joss had been able to convince Amber to come back for
season seven; the ending he had planned for Willow and Tara (all
along, he says, and I go with believing him) would have had me bawling
like he said they all did every time they talked about it in writer's
meetings.
And since I stayed spoiler-free for season seven. I wouldn't have been
one of the "everyone on the internet" who would have known, but would
have been one of the rest of the people who "would never ever have
seen it coming" and I'd have cried like the ickle cry-baby I can be
about such things.
*sniffle*
But instead, Amber didn't want to come back, for whatever reason, so
they went with Kennedy, because Joss said he had always intended that
only one character would still have a girlfriend when the series ended
- and that the character would be Willow.
Wendy( It would have been funny if Xander had turned out to be gay
too.)(There were, after all, hints about that too.)
<me>
Oh, yeah, Xander is thisclose to gay or bi himself - and I suspect if
the series had gone on longer, there would've been more than just
hints. After all, are there really *any* characters Joss writes
long-term that *aren't* sexually ambigous?
--
Kamil
Spike: "Because Angel and I have never been intimate. Well, except for
that one . . . "
"Power Play" Angel the Series
I miss my dead gay show
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 27 May 2006 to 28 May 2006 (#2006-92)
**************************************************************