HIGHLA-L Digest - 18 Aug 2004 to 19 Aug 2004 - Special issue (#2004-154)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
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There are 11 messages totalling 850 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. Time and again... Oh, hell, mostly Atlantis with a bit of HL thrown in for
flavor
2. Verbatim #4
3. Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever (6)
4. Season Four dvd Commentary: Till Death
5. More Bond (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:16:01 -0500
From: Ginny <RED57@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Time and again... Oh, hell, mostly Atlantis with a bit of HL thrown in for flavor
T'Mar wrote on 8/17/2004, 3:25 PM:
> Which FK ep was she in? She's very exotic looking - was she a vampire?
> I'm not sure I like her. She annoys me in some indefinable way. Imagine -
> I like McKay and dislike the strong female lead. Then again, I never like
> the characters everyone else does.
She played "Norma Alves" in an episode called "Hunters" way back in 1992
- she must have been playing a kid then. Here's an episode
guide with, apparently, Eurominutes:
http://lavender.fortunecity.com/wildbunch/241/epguide/111.html
And OBHL? When Googling "Forever Knight" and "Hunters" and "1.11" (the
episode number) I got mostly HL links back, including one to Lisa
Howard's IMDB listing that had her appearing on Forever Knight once as
well. But as we know, a reference to Highlander is always and everywhere
popping up when least expected.
--
Ginny
RED57@aol.com
Fresh out of .sig lines
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:28:05 +0100
From: "a.j.mosby" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Verbatim #4
As previously promised, I'll only post this once, unless specifically asked
to do so again. People can privately e-mail me for any specific info.
Thanks,
John
Verbatim #4 Contents:
DRIVE-BY SHOOTING:
Adrian Paul, Grayson McCouch and James Seale on creating the Hi-Def thriller
E5. Includes behind the scenes photos and also AP comments on the roles of
Duncan MacLeod and James Bond.
THE WEST COAST WINGFIELD:
In the first of a two-part interview Peter Wingfield discusses Catwoman and
the difference between the US and UK film industries.
LOVING THE ALIEN:
As The Peacekeeper Wars gets ready to hit screens, Ben Browder explains why
every good story is about '...THE girl'.
THE LIFE OF RYAN
King Arthur swordmaster and ex-Merry Man Mark Ryan talks about his journey
from Sherwood Forest to Hollywood and beyond.
LOST & FOUND
A preview of J.J. Abrams new show, Lost.
MAKING-UP IS HARD TO DO
Robert Hall takes us behind the scenes at Almost Human, the FX workshop that
created many of the monsters for Buffy and Angel.
As always, it's 32 pages, with colour covers. Full ordering information is
on the website (which for the moment remains:
http://www.btinternet.com/~a.j.mosby/VerbatimMag/index.html )
Also: a quick apology for those who editions of #3 were off-set slightly
during printing. Hopefully this didn't spoil the reading of the articles.
I've now changed printers after thy couldn't guarantee it wouldn't happen
again. It'll cost a little but more to produce, but for the moment I'm doing
my best not to pass that on. The mag remains £6.50 / $14.00
PayPal prefered but anyone who doesn't have access to that can e-mail me for
alternative ways or for any other info.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:35:14 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
Nina:
>So, you admit slash is porn, but you insist you don't read slash for the
>sex.... Isn't that like the guys saying they read Playboy for the
>articles--not the naked pics?
Ha. Yes, probably. I never said I didn't *like* the sex. I said I
didn't read it for that particularly. I read slash for how it
develops the characters, for the emotional stuff going on. I have
megs of stories in which the sex isn't even shown - and it doesn't
bother me. (What would you call a slash story with no or fade-out
sex? Then it ISN'T porn.) But if I do find a story with hot sex
(which IS porn, or at least pornographic) then I'll enjoy reading
the sex too.
Maybe I should say that slash isn't *always* porn - but if it
contains NC-17 rated sex scenes, at least call a spade a spade,
not a gardening implement. :)
And people who say they read Playboy for the articles actually
*might*. I've picked up an issue or two that my brother's left
lying around, and found the articles to be interesting, well-
researched and informative.
- Marina.
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\=============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==|| \\
"What about the fact they thought we were gay?"
"Adds mystery." - Wesley and Angel; "Expecting" (Angel)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:34:39 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Season Four dvd Commentary: Till Death
Commentary in html, with screen captures, can be found at:
http://www.wordsmiths.net/MacGeorge/episodes/Season4/TilDeath.htm
COMMENTARY: Gillian says that while this episode qualifies as a comedy
episode, it also qualifies as a romantic story.
Peter describes a little of the plot about faking Robert’s death to
rekindle Gina’s passion for him, saying that Methos thinks it’s over,
but Gina swings by MacLeod’s barge determined to kill him and, “… she’s
not best pleased to see me.” He remembers it as a fun episode. In
speaking of his line about having 68 wives, he says those are the kind
of lines a writer casually throws in with no idea what implications in
the fan world will be, when people arrive at fan conventions dressed as
one of Methos’ 68 “other wives.”
Gillian says it was nice to see that director Dennis Berry – he of the
fog-bound, dreary look to Highlander – could work in the sunlight.
Berry thought the episode was very funny, and deliberately shot it in a
different style with a flowing cameras and full shots, wide spaces with
a rhythm inside the shot more than created by editing and a lot of cuts.
The lighting was “more agreeable”, not as “dark and contrasty.” He
hadn’t done much comedy and was worried, but Ken Gord gave him a piece
of advice, that comedy was two shots, that if one character does
something funny, the other character with him has to be in the same shot
and react. His reaction is what cues the audience to laugh. If you do a
close on what’s funny and a close up on the other character’s reaction,
you lose comedy. Once he understood that, he was “home free.”
Peter says that it is necessary to play comedy “dead serious” in order
to make it work. The situation must be played completely straight, but
must also be simultaneously completely absurd and absolutely believable.
He liked being able to play deep dark drama in one episode and light
comedy in another. “Yeah, that’s a good gig.”
Gillian says Roger Daltry must have really liked playing Fitzcairn
because he is a huge star and doesn’t need to do it at “our low budget
rates” unless he wants to.
Bill Panzer says casting Roger originated with one of their early
Japanese backers who felt they should have a rock star in every episode.
Once they were out of the partnership, they no longer felt obligated to
do that, but casting Roger was an amazing stroke of luck. Not only was
he a good actor with a great comic presence and an ability to sell the
most outrageous concepts, but Roger and Adrian had an innate,
unpracticed comic timing together. If you could shoot the first
rehearsal, which they gradually started doing, from the reading at the
table to the first shot, they played off each other, which is something
you just can’t plan. It was an amazing stroke of luck, which is why they
kept bringing Roger back from the dead.
Gillian says that when she visited the set during the shooting of “Til
Death”, Roger wanted to know if he could cut his hair and come back to
play a different character. Gillian told him it didn’t matter if Fitz
was dead, we would still be seeing a lot of him. The chemistry between
Roger and Adrian was such that you really believed from the first moment
of the two characters together that they had been friends for hundreds
of years.
OUTTAKES: In a couple of takes of a deleted scene, Methos and Duncan are
moving Methos’ things from his station wagon to Duncan’s car. Methos is
telling Duncan that involving himself in other people’s domestic
disputes is a bad idea.
“I guess you’re talking from experience, eh?”
“Always! Rome, 34 A.D., there was a senator and his wife and a slave boy….”
“Oh, I get it, now you’re the wise old bachelor!”
Methos objects to Duncan touching an old battered black case, placing it
in the car with great care, noting when Duncan describes Gina and Robert
as “perfect together”, “Yeah, well, they said that about Sonny and
Cher.” As they prepare to drive away in their respective cars, he
enjoins Duncan to “take care of that black box”, getting a mischievous
grin back from Duncan, making Methos sigh and roll his eyes.
In a cut scene from the flashback, when Fitz is stealing cookies at the
earlier reenactment of Gina and Robert’s wedding, Duncan notes that
Connor isn’t coming because he knew Fitzcairn was going to be there.
“Simple misunderstanding!” Fitz says.
“Oh, wasn’t it you that [NOTE: hard to hear. Perhaps “told Gina] he was
a rogue?” Duncan replies, “And that he would break her heart.”
“I meant it as a compliment!” Fitz protests.
We see Adrian driving around with the actress who played Gina, with the
camera attached to the side of the car while they go through their
dialogue over and over again (the scene where Duncan is taking Gina to
the scene of the fight between Methos and Robert). They have to stop
once at red lights, and one or the other of them has to slap the scene
card each time, and it’s clear Adrian is just wending his way through
various Paris streets and tunnels.
Gillian notes that the barge is a real barge and filming is subject to
interruption by noisy neighbors. In the teapot scene, she notes that
Peter Wingfield had sprained his right hand playing soccer and the
splint only came off for filming. His hand was slightly blue and rather
swollen. In other shows, she says, you can write an injury for the
character and incorporate it, but you can’t explain an Immortal’s
unhealed injury. You can really see it in the scene when Methos reaches
for the sugar to put in his tea.
Finally, they show an outtake of the last scene of Duncan unpacking the
Ming vase. Adrian blows the first take, and they start again. The second
time they get all the way to the point where Peter reaches for the keys
to the barge, and instead of his line, Peter says, “….and I haven’t got
the [bleep]ing keys in my pocket,” triggering Adrian acting silly and
general laughter on the set.
THE EPISODE: In the prologue, noted as in a Chateau outside Paris in
1921, we see a scene of a beautiful Immortal woman sleeping in her
luxurious boudoir. She is startled out of sleep by masked Immortal
invading her room, after her with a sword. She screams and grabs her own
sword and the two of them do battle. When he finally disarms her and
they kiss it suddenly becomes clear that this was all foreplay to
passionate sex.
“Next time,” the woman insists breathlessly as they fall into bed. “I
get to be on top.”
“Anything you say, my dear,” he agrees with a laugh.
We see Duncan entering his barge, observing Methos meditating (and doing
what sounds like an unsuccessful attempt at Tibetan throat-singing), in
full lotus on Duncan’s desk. It seems Methos’ place is being sold and
when Duncan suggests he move into a hotel, Methos says he wouldn’t stay
in “any hotel that Adam Pierson could afford.”
Duncan opens an invitation to a wedding of Gina and Robert deValicourt,
an Immortal couple who remarry every hundred years. Methos notes that he
was married 68 times, but never to an Immortal. “That would be too much
of a commitment for me to make.”
Duncan gets nostalgic, remembering when he and Fitzcairn were both madly
in love with Gina, before she met Robert, and we get a flashback to
Paris, 1696, when they were competing for Gina’s affections. The three
of them end up at the residence of the Baron deValicourt, who, it seems,
is the most notorious thief in Europe who had stolen money from Gina.
Fitz and Duncan bumble along, each trying to impress her even though she
seems perfectly capable of taking care of herself.
They break into the huge chateau, finding a room full of treasure and
encounter deValicourt, and while Duncan and Fitz compete for who gets to
challenge him, Gina and Robert’s eyes meet and it is clear it is lust at
first sight. Duncan cheats to win a coin toss (Fitz turns out to have no
coins, planning to borrow money from MacLeod, when deValicourt tosses
them a coin of his own), and so wins the right to challenge deValicourt.
During the fight, deValicourt discovers they are there because he had
stolen a shipment of gold belonging to Gina, so he stops and says he has
never been accused of stealing from anyone so beautiful. (Duncan: “Hey,
we’re fighting here!”) Gina stops the fight and she and deValicourt exit
arm-in-arm with Fitz and Duncan looking on in appalled dismay.
A few months later, we see Fitz and Duncan in a snowy park, with Gina
having individually requested a meeting with each of them. They are each
convinced Gina wants to be with them, but it turns out Gina is there to
announce her engagement to Robert deValicourt and she wants both of them
to give her away.
Unfortunately, in the present, it seems things aren’t going that well
with this century’s anniversary. Gina and Robert have a bitter argument,
and Duncan walks in on them just as Gina deliberately breaks a Ming
vase. Robert complains to Duncan that it “hasn’t been good for us since
the 60’s,” and that he thinks it’s over between them, but Duncan tells
him that no one ever loved him like Gina.
We get another flashback to 1796, to the first of Gina and Robert’s
century anniversary parties. One of the party guests is Sean Burns, who
is conversing with a woman who evidently thinks that Fitz proposed to
her (the woman is apparently an Immortal since they talk about being
around for 100 years to celebrate *their* anniversary), but Fitz was
unaware that he had done so, and starts to frantically backpedal and
equivocate while Sean sternly warns him that he considered “Lady
Caroline” like a sister. In a moment, it is apparent that Caroline, Sean
and Duncan were baiting Fitz and the woman tells a very nervous Fitz to,
“Calm yourself. I would sooner marry a horse’s ass.”
Duncan later interrupts Fitz stuffing cookies into his pockets, and we
subsequently get a whole adventure of Fitz, Duncan and Gina (dressed as
a boy) rescuing Robert from being beheaded by French revolutionaries.
In the present, though, it seems aren’t going so well. Despite Robert’s
apologies, Gina will not be mollified and she wants a divorce. Robert
and Duncan pace back and forth in the snow, and Robert begs Duncan to
try to talk to Gina. He tries, but Gina insists that it is time for the
marriage to end.
Duncan comes up with a plan to put Robert in jeopardy, forcing Gina to
realize how much she still loves him. Duncan tries to persuade Methos to
participate, but Methos refuses, noting that it is impossible to make
him feel guilty about it since “I haven’t felt guilt since the 11th
Century.” It takes some convincing, but Methos finally agrees to do it,
but only in exchange for the barge. Duncan doesn’t really believe him
and the deal irritates Duncan, but he agrees.
Duncan drives Gina to the scene of a fight between Robert and some
mysterious Immortal, telling her that Robert didn’t seem to have the
will to live anymore. Robert and Methos briefly practice their fight,
with Robert nattering on about how he missed his old pirate days,
sailing the seven seas. Methos says he hates the sea, mentioned crossing
the ocean in the 7th Century with a bunch of Irish monks. “Six of us in
a rowboat, no facilities.”
They initially just clash their swords noisily together when they hear
and feel Gina and Duncan approach, then they really start to fight as
Gina madly dashes towards them, calling out that she will kill the
Immortal challenging Robert, but Duncan holds her back saying she can’t
interfere. As she watches, the men move into a clutch, and Robert
mutters that they’ve done enough, and Methos should just jab him, “not
too deep.”
“Where’s your sense of drama?” Methos growls, his fighting blood
obviously up, and he stabs Robert through.
Gina starts to chase after Methos, who runs away, but she stops to
console Robert, cradling him in her arms, apologizing and kissing him,
promising never to leave him, while Methos argues in agitated whispers
with MacLeod that he was supposed to keep Gina away, that she was about
to kill him, and Duncan tells Methos to get out of there.
So, all is well, Gina and Robert are kissing and Duncan is smiling in
triumph, until Gina grimly promises to “find that bastard and take his
head if it’s the last thing I do!”
Back at the barge, Methos is incensed, even after Duncan tells him all
he has to do is lay low for a while. “Great. So I lose my head after
5,000 years so that you can play marriage guidance counselor. I must
have been out of my mind!” Then he insists on Duncan giving him the keys
to the barge, but Duncan just laughs.
“You weren’t serious. You were just testing me.”
But no, Methos insists that if he’s going to die for it, Duncan is going
to give him the barge, and possessively takes over Duncan’s chair and
barge, much to Duncan’s irritation.
Duncan goes to see Robert, to have a celebratory drink, only to learn
that Gina is on the way to the barge to ask Duncan to give her away at
their 3rd century anniversary wedding. In a panic, they dash to the barge.
In the meantime, Methos is going through Duncan’s CD collection (“Opera,
opera, opera, opera… got a lot of opera here. No Springsteen, no Queen…)
when Gina enters, sword drawn, thinking Methos has killed MacLeod.
Methos goes for his sword and Gina swings…
Robert and Duncan drive up, frantic with worry, when Gina steps out onto
the gangplank to tell them, “It’s over. The son-of-a-bitch is dead.”
“You took his head!?” Duncan asks in utter dismay.
Duncan is in the midst of horrified denial that it can be true, that it
was all an act, when he feels another Immortal, looks around and Methos
pops up out of the barge.
“Not funny!” Duncan yells, but Methos seems to think it’s quite funny.
MY COMMENTS: This is a terrific, jam-packed episode, full of great
flashbacks as well as a fun present-day story. I didn’t come close to
describing all the scenes and events, but I knew I was going to run out
of my allowed six pages, so I had to do some serious summarizing of
intricate, event-filled scenes. Every moment was truly about the
characters and their relationships, whether between Gina and Robert,
Duncan and Fitz or Duncan and Methos, or any combination, it was totally
character driven and filled with humor light-hearted sweetness.
It was especially great to see a little more of Sean Burns, and watching
the remarkable comic interaction between Duncan and Fitz is a real joy.
The combination of tension and friendship between Duncan and Methos is
so intricately interwoven with exposing new little bits about Methos’
life and character that we don’t even realize until it is over that
we’ve really learned a fair amount about Methos in this episode that we
didn’t know before: That he has been married numerous times, but only to
mortals; that he crossed the Atlantic in the 7th Century in a rowboat
with six Irish monks; that he has something mysterious and delicate in a
black case that he values; and that he is willing to do some fairly
bizarre things mostly just because Duncan asks him to – so long as he is
able to tweak Duncan in the process to get some fun out of it. <g>
Well cast, well written, well directed, well played all around.
MacGeorge
NOTE: The Chronicles list Caroline Mortimer, the lady referred to as
“Lady Caroline” in the flashback, as an aristocrat born in 1665, first
dying in 1691 “accidentally poisoned by bad cherries.” She and her
mortal husband were executed by guillotine in 1804 by Napoleon. “As
Carolyn knelt, graceful and beautiful to the end, I am told that Sean
and his priestly friend, Father Darius, were deep in prayer for the
couple’s souls across the Seine.”
All episode commentaries can be found at:
http://www.wordsmiths.net/MacGeorge/episodes/indexframeset.htm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:31:19 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
I said:
>>I have to admit I think that is kind of....sad. The Series, after all,
>>was about (in part) a man who over the course of 6 years proved he loved
>>women. A lot. So why eschew all fanfic that attempts to continue that
>story?
Marina:
>Okay, I'm trying to be serious here so hear me out. I dislike fanfic with
>OFCs - and I *have* read enough to know - because quite often the fanfic
>ends up being more about the OFC than the characters from the show. I do
>not *care* about some OFC, I want to read about Duncan, Richie, Methos
>and Joe. (Not all together, geez - I mean as characters.) I guess it's
>like a one-shot guest star. So Duncan whacks him in the end, so what?
Bear with me while I make sure I am understanding you. By and large you prefer fanfic that sticks with the canon characters, you prefer not to invest the time or energy in learning about a new original character - especially a female one. Is that correct? So...aside for "bit players" who might be original, a successful HL fanfic has to focus exclusively on Duncan, Methos, Richie and Joe? What about Amanda? Dr. Anne? Grace? Michelle? Ceirdwyn? Renee? <snicker> Would you read a Duncan/Amanda story? A Methos/Ceirdwyn fanfic? Or does it have to be essentially all male? Can it be about Duncan and Methos and *not* be slash or would that not interest you either?
>>Are you saying that no fanfic writer can create an OFC that is well
>written and, well, original?
>
>They are just very rare. Stories that feature OFCs usually turn into sappy
>romances or long, drawn-out courtship rituals. If someone could get an
>OFC into a story that also featured Duncan and the gang acting like, well,
>Duncan and the gang, then I might like it. But I don't want the OFC to
>dominate the story, which they almost always do.
Good original characters are rare whether they be male or female. Good fanfic - with or without OFC/OMC - is rare.
So...long drawn-out courtships and sappy romances between Richie and Methos are OK....but between a HL male and an OFC is not OK? Just checking. <eg> I wouldn't want to read a hundred stories each with a new OFC falling in love with one of the boys and having him fall for her only to have fate separate them forever. Of course, I wouldn't want to read a hundred stories with Duncan falling in love with Methos and Methos falling for Duncan until fate drives them apart forever. HL slash seems very repetitive -perhaps because the cast of character in small (since OCs are verboten) and because there really are only so many ways for two men to have sex <eg>. If I were still reading HL fanfic to any great degree, I'd certainly want to "mix it up" rather than limit myself to one type.
>>Or, in the end, does your appreciation of fanfic really come down to
>>an appreciation of m/m sex? Using Methos and Duncan, for example, in
>>these stories is just a way of having a good "visual" since you know
>>exactly what they look like.
>Said it before, will say it again: I don't care about the sex per se.
>I enjoy the way that slash takes the characters in a new direction.
>A writer who can slash characters and still have them be recognizable
>as the characters from the TV series is, IMNSHO, a good writer.
Ok, again just testing my understanding, you say you're not interested in the sex per se but, as far as I can see, the element that takes the characters in the new direction is the m/m sex. In fact, since you want the characters to be recognizable as their original selves, then the m/m sex is really the *only* distinguishing feature, isn't it? I mean, you still want Duncan to be brave and stubborn and prideful and honorable-to-a-fault - you just want him to sleep with men, right? (And only men from the canon HL world) The new direction *is* sexual...it can't be anything else if all the other elements are held constant.
>>And yet *so* much slash is Mary Sue-ish in the extreme. The characters
>>may be called Methos or Joe or Duncan or Richie but the "voice" is
>>obviously a "female" voice - which is really the author's voice.
>I don't think so, at least not in HL fanfic. But in things like Sentinel -
>oh, yeah.
I'll admit that my reading of HL slash is a couple of years old so, perhaps, the more recent writers have gotten better at having the characters act like the TV characters in every way except their choice of bed partners. I just remember reading any number of Duncan/Methos stories and thinking "who are these people?" because they sounded and acting nothing like Duncan or Methos. They read exactly like what a woman would like a man to do when romancing/bedding a woman except both characters were male. Too often Duncan and/or Methos become *so* caring, *so* gentle, *so* patient, so* understanding* that you'd think they had been replaced by pod people (until, of course, the moment when pent-up passion overwhelms them and they fall to the rug in a haze of ripped clothing, scented oils, and body fluids.)(Cue lightning and thunder outside)(Cue moaning and declarations of long-denied love)(Cue the perfect Methos-quip to fend off any post-passion unease by Duncan)(Cue Methos and Dun!
can buying new rugs)(Cue Joe writing a chronicle entry and chuckling over the fact that Duncan and Methos have finally admitted what everyone knew all along)(Cue Wendy gagging while desperately trying to delete said rot from her computer)
When all is said and done, I suspect that saying "I don't read HL fanfic with OFC's because the female characters aren't well developed or because the plots are repetitive or because my interest is only in the canon characters and thus I only read slash" is ...disingenuous. I think people read slash because they like slash, not because het or gen fanfic is so much more poorly written. And, that's fine. I read science fiction rather than romance - not because one is always better written than the other, but because I like one better than than other.
Wendy( Why does the eventual and inevitable appearance of slash within a fandom inevitably result in the demise of the het/gen fandom?)(Is it just a natural progression)(Do non-slash lovers tire of re-reading the same 7 plots of gen/het fanfic while slash lovers have an unlimited capacity to read the same 7 slash plots?)(Is it because het/gen fanfic isn't sex-based and slash is?)(People who read porn tend to read and collect a great deal of it)(There is a psychological element somewhere in all of this.)(But we won't go there <eg>)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:08:29 -0700
From: "R. Shelton" <rshelton2@earthlink.net>
Subject: More Bond
If this article is correct, AP made the 'short list'; what they're
calling the 'Bond Five' in this article. -R
http://www.elitestv.com/news/pub/2004/Aug/EEN41238b883512d.html
--
Rachel Shelton
rshelton2@earthlink.net
@}->->->-
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:19:09 +0100
From: "a.j.mosby" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: More Bond
----- Original Message -----
From: "R. Shelton" <rshelton2@EARTHLINK.NET>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 6:08 PM
Subject: [HL] More Bond
> If this article is correct, AP made the 'short list'; what they're
> calling the 'Bond Five' in this article. -R
Sounds like more specualtion to me. The future of Bond has produced more
speculation disguised as fact than any other recent story I can remember.
Of the main contenders regualrly 'quoted', Hugh Jackman nails it for me.
Adrian Paul comes in second.
John
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:01:05 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
Wendy wrote:
>Bear with me while I make sure I am understanding you. By and large you
>prefer fanfic that sticks with the canon characters, you prefer not to
>invest the time or energy in learning about a new original character -
>especially a female one. Is that correct? So...aside for "bit players"
>who might be original, a successful HL fanfic has to focus exclusively
>on Duncan, Methos, Richie and Joe?
That seems right.
>What about Amanda? Dr. Anne? Grace? Michelle? Ceirdwyn? Renee? <snicker>
They can be *in* the stories, but Duncan is the hero (though Richie is
my hero *brandishing flag*) so I want him to be the focus of the story.
>Would you read a Duncan/Amanda story?
I've read plenty.
>A Methos/Ceirdwyn fanfic?
If someone could convince me they knew each other, why not?
>Or does it have to be essentially all male?
No, but HL (at least the version we most like here) is about Duncan
MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod and his friends. So that's who I want to
read about.
>Can it be about Duncan and Methos and *not* be slash or would that not
>interest you either?
I don't see why not. I have some.
>So...long drawn-out courtships and sappy romances between Richie and Methos
>are OK....but between a HL male and an OFC is not OK? Just checking.
It's pretty much guaranteed that if the story was about Richie and Methos
(in a slashy way), then it wouldn't be a sappy romance. (Richie does not
do sappy.) And if it was, it wouldn't be very good. At least have them
act like themselves.
>HL slash seems very repetitive
Fanfic in general is repetitive. I'm sure you've noticed. That isn't limited
to slash.
>Ok, again just testing my understanding, you say you're not interested in
>the sex per se but, as far as I can see, the element that takes the
>characters in the new direction is the m/m sex. In fact, since you want
>the characters to be recognizable as their original selves, then the m/m
>sex is really the *only* distinguishing feature, isn't it?
I obviously don't think so. Why do slash haters focus on the sex? Slash
readers and writers don't!
>I mean, you still want Duncan to be brave and stubborn and prideful and
>honorable-to-a-fault - you just want him to sleep with men, right?
>(And only men from the canon HL world) The new direction *is* sexual...it
>can't be anything else if all the other elements are held constant.
No, I disagree. (Yeah, big shock.) If Duncan, who has always been this
"highland barbarian" type, suddenly finds himself attracted to another
man (and following my character preferences, it must be someone I'd like
to read about - i.e., Methos, Richie or Joe) then that will affect him.
I want to read in graphic detail his struggles to come to terms with it.
Slash that doesn't develop the character (Duncan, Richie, whoever) in
this way really is *only* porn, and I don't want to read it. It must have
emotional resonance and a plot. A plot is always good. To say that if
someone decides they're bisexual or gay, then the story is about sex -
well, if a person says they're straight, then that is *also* about sex.
Hm?
>I'll admit that my reading of HL slash is a couple of years old so,
>perhaps, the more recent writers have gotten better at having the
>characters act like the TV characters in every way except their choice
>of bed partners. I just remember reading any number of Duncan/Methos
>stories and thinking "who are these people?" because they sounded and
>acting nothing like Duncan or Methos.
I haven't read HL slash for a long time either. Too busy imagining Clark
buggering Lex Luthor. :) Geez, that was a joke. Well, sort of.
>When all is said and done, I suspect that saying "I don't read HL fanfic
>with OFC's because the female characters aren't well developed or because
>the plots are repetitive or because my interest is only in the canon
>characters and thus I only read slash" is ...disingenuous. I think people
>read slash because they like slash, not because het or gen fanfic is so
>much more poorly written. And, that's fine. I read science fiction rather
>than romance - not because one is always better written than the other,
>but because I like one better than than other.
As you say - I'm not ashamed to admit I like slash. But people keep asking
why, as though it's a big mystery. So I will keep explaining why, to me,
it's better than het or gen. But no, I didn't "evaluate" the different
fanfic genres and "decide" slash was better - I just prefer it.
>( Why does the eventual and inevitable appearance of slash within a
>fandom inevitably result in the demise of the het/gen fandom?)
Really? I've never noticed that. But then, I have to confess I haven't
been paying attention. Other shows for which I read slash seem to have
a lot of het and gen. Maybe it's just that eventually, fanfic for a show
runs its course or burns itself out (remember: better to burn out than
fade away!) but the slashers keep going. Every possible slash plot has
been done in Sentinel slash, but people still write stories, coming up
with little twists on old ideas.
Going to bed now.
- Marina.
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\=============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==|| \\
"What about the fact they thought we were gay?"
"Adds mystery." - Wesley and Angel; "Expecting" (Angel)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:28:52 +0100
From: "a.j.mosby" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
T'Mar:
> It's pretty much guaranteed that if the story was about Richie and Methos
> (in a slashy way), then it wouldn't be a sappy romance. (Richie does not
> do sappy.) And if it was, it wouldn't be very good. At least have them
> act like themselves.
You know, this is where the Slash argument falls down for me completely. By
that, I don't mean the right for fans to write characters in whatever way
they choose for their amusement and pull whatever puppetmaster strings they
so wish within the confines of their own imagination. More power to invidual
creativity and freedom of expression (legally permitting)...and whatever
floats your QE2.
But Duncan, Methos, Richie, Joe, Tessa weren't gay. Amanda, though an
outrageous and delightful flirt with anything that had a pulse, was only
once seen in the same bed as a woman and that was hardly conclusive.
So to present ANY story that puts any of these characters in a homosexual
situation, simply ISN'T being remotely true to the characters in any way
they've been portrayed. You're writing a different character. They WOULDN'T
be acting like themselves. In fact, they'd be acting extremely against type
and against ALL evidence to the contrary.
Fanfic writers can do whatever they want to satisfy their creative juices,
but there seems to be an interesting need in a small sliver of almost every
fandom (HL, Sentinel, Harry Potter...) for someone to put characters into
what are inaccurate relationships in the context of how they exist already.
I mean... Harry Potter... puhlease. *That's* the bit I don't get. I get the
need to write further adventures and stories and I appreciate that gay
fiction can probably be just as well written as any other kind , but I don't
see the need for that to mean pretty much totally rewriting the dynamics as
known. And it's not a 'sexual' thing per se. I'd say the same if Duncan was
suddenly portayed as an existing resolute pascifist.
It's surely a bigger *challenge* of creativity to do something interesting
within the context and borders of the pre-existing universe, finding new
ways to push the acknowledged boundaries than it is to reinvent it so
completely for personal taste.
Slash writers can do what they want with who they want, but it does seem
that the impetus here is to explore homosexual relationships rather than
write *for* the existing characters per se. There's no harm in that. But I
don't understand the need for it in the context it seems to exist.
John
Your mileage may vary...but the tolls-booths get you in the end.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:33:20 -0700
From: Janice Cox <jlc_fresno@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
Gee, can I play too? :-)
I'm not a fan of slash, although I've got 'net friends
I like and respect who are. That being said, I'm a
huge fan of the starcrossed/forbidden lovers
storyline, and would be willing to read a story that
explored that in a slash fashion. What would you do,
for example, if you fell in love with someone through
their letters, only to find out that they're the same
gender as yourself? Making it work believably would be
a challenge, but it *could* be a good story.
I'd also be willing to accept that someone as old as
Methos, who has lived through so many cultures and
adapted to so many mores, could have had a "manly"
relationship at some point in his long past. But since
everything we've seen of him in recent centuries is
decidedly hetero, I'd have trouble lifting my
suspension of disbelief for a modern-day m/m
relationship even with him.
That's really my only complaint about slash. I don't
mind that the stories I've seen have all included
pretty graphic sex; I'm a big girl, and haven't yet
read anything that shocked me. But the slash I've read
hasn't been able to make me believe that the character
that I know so well had this side we never saw. <g>
Took me long enough to get to the point, didn't it?
Just my two cents.
Janice
--- "a.j.mosby" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com> wrote:
So to present ANY story that puts any of these
characters in a homosexual situation, simply ISN'T
being remotely true to the characters in any way
they've been portrayed.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:54:56 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
me before--
> >So, you admit slash is porn, but you insist you don't read slash for the
> >sex.... Isn't that like the guys saying they read Playboy for the
> >articles--not the naked pics?
Marina--
> Ha. Yes, probably. I never said I didn't *like* the sex. I said I
> didn't read it for that particularly. I read slash for how it
> develops the characters, for the emotional stuff going on. I have
> megs of stories in which the sex isn't even shown - and it doesn't
> bother me. (What would you call a slash story with no or fade-out
> sex? Then it ISN'T porn.) But if I do find a story with hot sex
> (which IS porn, or at least pornographic) then I'll enjoy reading
> the sex too.
I'm sure, but _why_ is that? What exactly is the appeal, to you as a
female, of "watching" 2 guys graphically fornicating? It seems obvious to
me that such a scenario shuts out any female. I totally get why a gay guy
would be interested, but otherwise, it seems odd. And, since the fandoms
that spawn thriving slash communities are probably 75% or higher female, the
whole thing is particularly mystifying. The only explanation that holds
water is along the lines of what Wendy, I think, mentioned earlier--that
certain female fans can't "allow" the male characters they adore to have sex
w/ other women, but other male sexual partners are OK. Further, to the
extent gay sex is (still) perceived as a negative thing OR the particular
acts in the story are particularly brutal or demeaning (not uncommon w/ HL),
the male characters are perhaps being punished for not choosing the needy
female slash fan.
Marina (to Wendy)--
>>>It's pretty much guaranteed that if the story was about Richie and Methos
(in a slashy way), then it wouldn't be a sappy romance. (Richie does not
do sappy.) And if it was, it wouldn't be very good. At least have them
act like themselves.>>>
But that's exactly what people opposed to slash say--write the characters
_as themselves_! You can argue that Richie doesn't "do sappy" but happily
buy into Richie _doing Methos_? That's ridiculous.
>>>Maybe it's just that eventually, fanfic for a show
runs its course or burns itself out (remember: better to burn out than
fade away!) but the slashers keep going. Every possible slash plot has
been done in Sentinel slash, but people still write stories, coming up
with little twists on old ideas.>>
Well, sure--slash is way more twisted to start w/. But, I think the real
explanation for the longevity is that slash has very little to do w/ the
underlying fictional universe or even the characters, which are by
definition altered in the most basic way. Slash writers & readers are just
using HL, for instance, to provide a ready-made richly textured backdrop &
save themselves having to create or imagine one; Duncan & Methos (&,
unfortunately, AP & PW) are simply cheap & easy (& delicious, until smeared
w/ all those bodily fluids) visual aids. Since slash IS pornography, I just
slashers would get their jollies elsewhere & leave Highlander out of it.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 18 Aug 2004 to 19 Aug 2004 - Special issue (#2004-154)
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