HIGHLA-L Digest - 23 Aug 2003 to 24 Aug 2003 (#2003-195)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:00:02 -0400
There are 13 messages totalling 393 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Poll: Ritchie: Immie wannabe & childish, or whiney voiced punk (5)
2. Highlander: The Source (2004) (8)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:18:08 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Poll: Ritchie: Immie wannabe & childish, or whiney voiced punk
Checking back in after sending my boy off to college (Egads, he was 7 when this list was formed)(Old, I'm old!!!)
Greg:
>> Stan Kirsch and the writers, IMO, did (by and large) a very good job
>portraying a typical 18 year old street kid.
Shawn:
>I just replied to that point. The gist of it is that rather than
>discussing the accuracy of the portrayal, the fact that he is annoying
>(according to me) makes his character detract rather than add to the
>show (according to me).
That's fair enough. No one is require to love all the characters in any show.While I'd say that Stan did a good job of portraying a typical 18 year old, one can certainly question whether the Series *needed* a 18 year old at all. Or, if it needed one, did it need the one they chose. I think the concept of having a very young newly-made Immortal was a good one. We saw how Duncan lived his life as a 400 year-old man but we needed a window as to how someone gets to 400. Flashbacks are Ok for some of that, but having a different character actually living through the experience is also fine. We could see Richie's experiences and compare and contrast them to Duncan's - and see the conflict as Richie reacted differently than Duncan would have /did react.
Where I think the writers fell down was in not showing us more of Richie's early adjustments to immortality. Granted, the show was about Duncan and not Richie, but since Richie *was* in almost every episode for several years, he could have been better used. Too often the plots ended up being Richie screws up (again) and Duncan looks disappointed and disapproving. There was room, IMGLO, to show Richie approaching the issues of immortality and making different choices than Duncan would have but having them be successful -at least occasionally. About the only time I can think of where the writers pulled this off was in "Leader of the Pack".
Shawn:
>By saying "better", and mean I would have made his character
>fundamentally different, as in, not the 18 year old whiney punk. As an
>18 year old myself (or close to it), I never identified with him.
I don't know how one writes a character- any character- that everyone can identify with. As several people have noted, the character of Richie *did* ring true for some. He *did* act the way some 18 year-olds act. He may not have acted the way *you* act (or the way you think you act<eg>) but he was a realistic portrayal of one teenager. He wasn't suppose to be an "Everyman" representing *all* teenagers. Tessa (a portrayal of a 35 year old French woman) did not react to things in the way that I would have (at that time a 35-ish American woman) but I could certainly identify with her situation and her feelings and actions.
Shawn again
>That's kind of the point. So few TV watching people can identify with
>him enough to make us "get" where he's coming from.
I think you are generalizing from a very small sample <g>. *You* couldn't identify with Richie..that doesn't mean that thousands of others didn't.
> As a one-episode
>character, this would have been perfect, but in order to make the guy a
>regular, he must have qualities one can really identify with.
What qualities couldn't you identify with? If not in yourself, than in other 18 year old males of your acquaintance? Richie was impatient- a quality well represented among the young (and many of the old, too). He was in hormonal overdrive- not at all unusual for teenaged males. He didn't like being told what to do. Duh- teenager! Given a choice between doing something the slow boring way or the fast exciting way, he chose fast and exciting. Again- pretty typical of teenagers. He could be sullen. Again, pretty normal. He could be goofy and silly and fun - again, normal.
>My reasoning? The presumably posh lifestyle he begins to live erodes his
>reason for being a little bee-aahhhtch. This /really really/ especially
>doesn't fly when some folks just start watching the show sometime after
>Richie's intro, and don't know his history.
I never thought that his basic personality had anything to do with his upbringing. He was *young* and he wanted to live in the *now*. That is absolutely typical of teenagers. He didn't want to train for hours. He didn't want to go to school. He didn't want to work and save money for the future. He wanted to have fun, have a few bucks in his pocket, rely on his young, fit body and winning smile and let tomorrow come as it may. He had all the cockiness and confidence that comes with being way too young to know just how awful things can turn out. It doesn't matter if someone older is there to point out the pitfalls, the average teen isn't going to believe them. Most teenagers think they are smarter than everyone over 25. Make that teenager immortal and ...watch out <G>
As for new viewers needing to know his history to understand his character, as I said, I don't think it matters. His character was not really "boy from the streets becomes immortal" ..it was "teenager becomes immortal".
>Thar be the bad story telling.
No, not bad story telling. Just story telling that you don't like. Two different things. You found Richie whiny. Lots of people loved him. I disliked Joe Dawson- lots of people loved him. Nina hated Charlie...um...surely someone loved him <EG> It isn't that the characters were intrinsically "bad" or poorly written, they just weren't always what any given viewer wanted to see. And, while I'd agree that some poor writing was present on occasion, the fact that we don't like a story doesn't automatically mean poor writing.
>I apologize for calling him a
>bee-aaahhtch to those who might be offended, but it seems the quickest
>way for me to articulate my meaning.
I never really thought of Richie as a bitch.....but then in my day :::::cough cough::: that term was less frequently used for heterosexual males. No..the more I think of it.... I don't really see Richie as a bitch at all. He was impulsive. He didn't always learn from experience. He was more trusting than the average puppy. He wanted to be like Duncan without taking the time and effort to actually become like Duncan. But he wasn't a bitch...at least not in the way I generally define that term.
Shawn:
>My personal feeling is that annoying qualities needing explanation
>
>>To me, it was like the pebble in your shoe effect as a regular
>character.
Again...*you* saw them as "annoying qualities" that needed explanation. That doesn't make it a universal truth that Richie *had* annoying qualities or that no one would understand why he was "annoying" (if he was). Many, many viewers would tune in and immediately understand that Richie was a teenager ......with all that normally implies. Many many viewer might tune in and find *Duncan's* behavior toward Richie to be the annoying quality.
You found Richie to be a pebble in your shoe- Marina (and others) found him to be the best reason to watch the show. So it goes.
Wendy(I wonder where the Bunny is.)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:38:49 -0700
From: FKMel <sgt_buck_frobisher@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Poll: Ritchie: Immie wannabe & childish, or whiney voiced punk
Just out of curiosity, what was it you didn't like
about him? I find it interesting to hear and discuss
different opinions. But I agree with you, everyone
likes different characters and has different opinions.
Good, well written post there.
Mel, who does agree that maybe they shoud've taken the
'patching up the friendship' arcs a bit slower.
I disliked
> Joe Dawson- lots of people loved him.
=====
The trouble with immortality is that it tends to go on forever-Herb Cain
FK:NickNatPacker, Knight of the Cross,Knightie, Natpacker/Highlander:Duncan Flag-Waver/Due South Fan/Tracker Fan/Angel Fan/Port Charles Fan
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:43:54 -0700
From: FKMel <sgt_buck_frobisher@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Poll: Ritchie: Immie wannabe & childish, or whiney voiced punk
Wiething in on the main issue...I tend to be more
ambiguous(sp?) about liking and disliking
characters...of course there are some I definately
like and some I definately dislike, but even with the
ones I like I sometimes wonder what the writers were
thinking, or feel like reaching into the TV and giving
them a good whap upside the head...anyway, I didn't
find Richie really all that annoying, but I did
sometimes find the writing lacking in places. It's
really pretty much the same to me...with Richie,
without Richie, never really made a difference if he
was there or not.
Mel
=====
The trouble with immortality is that it tends to go on forever-Herb Cain
FK:NickNatPacker, Knight of the Cross,Knightie, Natpacker/Highlander:Duncan Flag-Waver/Due South Fan/Tracker Fan/Angel Fan/Port Charles Fan
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:52:07 -0700
From: FKMel <sgt_buck_frobisher@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Highlander: The Source (2004)
It's in the writing stage now...I think it's up for
final approval at the moment.
AP said he's waiting to see the script before deciding
and CL was going to do some flashbacks but then they
said no.
It's about some new young Immies looking for the root
of their existance, and apparently the Watchers have a
big part.
And why is P/D already selling merchandise when the
movie's not even in the filming stage yet? I never
will understand them.
Mel, who's trying to stay open minded but who has a
hard time trusting P/D with their track record of
sequels.
---
Shawn <core@enodev.com> wrote:
> Anyone see this yet? If so, anyone have an inside
> scoop?
> http://www.imdb.com/Title?0299981
>
> Sorry if it's old news...
=====
The trouble with immortality is that it tends to go on forever-Herb Cain
FK:NickNatPacker, Knight of the Cross,Knightie, Natpacker/Highlander:Duncan Flag-Waver/Due South Fan/Tracker Fan/Angel Fan/Port Charles Fan
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:08:59 -0400
From: Dotiran@aol.com
Subject: Re: Highlander: The Source (2004)
In a message dated 8/23/2003 9:05:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, core@enodev.com writes:
>
> Anyone see this yet? If so, anyone have an inside scoop?
> http://www.imdb.com/Title?0299981
>
> Sorry if it's old news...
It is not that it is old but that it is false. There is not as of now a script for HL 5. No script at all. The last major draft is back in rewrites for a month more. It is looking bleak. NO cast has been signed, and Michael Oblowitz has not been hired as the director. For more on the movie and its [lack of] progress, read the message board on the official Highlander site.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:40:13 -0500
From: Keith Petersen <petersenkeith@wat.midco.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander: The Source (2004)
They said no to CL or said no to both AP and CL being in the movie?
Keith Petersen
petersenkeith@wat.midco.net
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:16:56 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander: The Source (2004)
> Anyone see this yet?
Seen it, sent up prayers that it dies a natural death _before_ filming. (As
opposed to an ignominious death immediately after theater release, like its
sibling films.)
Nina (bad editing)
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:28:28 -0400
From: Dotiran@aol.com
Subject: Re: Highlander: The Source (2004)
In a message dated 8/23/2003 11:40:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, petersenkeith@wat.midco.net writes:
> They said no to CL or said no to both AP and CL being in
> the movie?
Who is "they" ?
No one said no to AP and CL being in the movie because as AP said two weeks ago he was still waiting to see a script and so he hadn't even been asked. It is not clear if Connor's character will even *be* in the script. No script. No actors asked. So far there is *no* movie, just a title, and oh yes, the "merchandise." *vbeg*
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:37:14 -0500
From: Shawn <core@enodev.com>
Subject: Re: Poll: Ritchie: Immie wannabe & childish, or whiney voiced punk
On Sat, 2003-08-23 at 21:38, FKMel wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, what was it you didn't like
> about him?
Personally, I found him to be more like a thirteen year old than a young
adult. Seems to me he thinks the world owes him.
I grew up in difficult a situation, and find his bipolar 'tude to be a
little annoying and whiny, even to the extent that he is exceptionally
so (that is to say, more than the vast majority of 18 year olds).
I know young adults who are leeches (an exotic dancer to name one) who
doesn't come off nearly as babyish as Richie.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:45:43 -0500
From: Keith Petersen <petersenkeith@wat.midco.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander: The Source (2004)
"They" refers to the info on the site the original poster on this thread
made. Since AP and CL weren't listed as actors and assumedly (apparently
wrongly) that they people posting the information knew what they were
talking about about the storyline and actors.
Keith
> > They said no to CL or said no to both AP and CL being in
> > the movie?
>
> Who is "they" ?
> No one said no to AP and CL being in the movie because as AP said two
weeks ago he was still waiting to see a script and so he hadn't even been
asked. It is not clear if Connor's character will even *be* in the script.
No script. No actors asked. So far there is *no* movie, just a title, and oh
yes, the "merchandise." *vbeg*
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:38:40 -0700
From: FKMel <sgt_buck_frobisher@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Poll: Ritchie: Immie wannabe & childish, or whiney voiced punk
Actually, I was talking to the other poster...can't
remember her name...about Joe. But the Richie opinions
are interesting too. I just think it's kind of
interesting discussing various fans' opinions about
different characters, plots, episodes, ect. Kind of
insightful to see what they think.
Mel
--- Shawn <core@enodev.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2003-08-23 at 21:38, FKMel wrote:
> > Just out of curiosity, what was it you didn't like
> > about him?
> Personally, I found him to be more like a thirteen
> year old than a young
> adult. Seems to me he thinks the world owes him.
>
> I grew up in difficult a situation, and find his
> bipolar 'tude to be a
> little annoying and whiny, even to the extent that
> he is exceptionally
> so (that is to say, more than the vast majority of
> 18 year olds).
>
> I know young adults who are leeches (an exotic
> dancer to name one) who
> doesn't come off nearly as babyish as Richie.
=====
The trouble with immortality is that it tends to go on forever-Herb Cain
FK:NickNatPacker, Knight of the Cross,Knightie, Natpacker/Highlander:Duncan Flag-Waver/Due South Fan/Tracker Fan/Angel Fan/Port Charles Fan
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 12:16:58 -0400
From: Ace!Miracle <ke731458@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
Subject: Re: Highlander: The Source (2004)
I will not believe there is a 5th* HL movie until I'm sitting in the
theatre and watching it. Which was also my attitude with the 4th* movie.
*the official numbers, because as there is no 2nd movie, these would be
the 4th and 3rd, respectively
--Miracle, the Other Clan Denial
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They say the biggest problem in the world is apathy. But really, who
cares about that?" --Jeremy Lloyd, Laugh-In
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Minor Major Miracle: Time Lady, Jedi Knight, Occasional English Professor
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:57:15 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander: The Source (2004)
> I will not believe there is a 5th* HL movie until I'm sitting in the
> theatre and watching it. Which was also my attitude with the 4th* movie.
Actually, I had trouble believing Endgame while I was sitting in the theater
watching it. The holy ground fiasco, the whiplash editing, & the laughable
morphing at the end were particularly unbelievable.
Nina (Christopher Lambert's movie _Absolon_ on Sci Fi Channel isn't as bad
as I'd feared. However, he looks nearly as decrepit in it as he did in
Endgame, & as usual his accent is as thick as it is puzzling in his
character.)
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 23 Aug 2003 to 24 Aug 2003 (#2003-195)
***************************************************************