HIGHLA-L Digest - 29 Sep 2002 (#2002-161)
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Sun, 29 Sep 2002 22:00:01 -0400
There are 8 messages totalling 335 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Well & truly a slash thing now (5)
2. Well & truly a slash thing now (OT) (3)
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Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 13:43:07 -0600
From: Donna Gum <djgum@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
>
>Then, we hit CaH and Rev, and the slash, as well as ADULT hetero,
>turned violent. Extremely so.
This is exactly why I stopped reading Hldr slash.
I'm still a slash fan but I'm picky - the usual things - good grammar, can
they plot a story, can they spell, etc., -and- I stay away from the violent
stuff.
>I don't think I've read any
>ADULT f*nf*c either. The last piece of f*nf*c I read was a
>HLUniverse/Stargate crossover. (Jack O'Neill, G**z*r Emeritus,
>got his butt drop-kicked off a Gate platform by an Immie.
>Female. Red-haired. Scottish. Need I say more? I loved it.
And what did Jack ever do to you ZK? :)
Donna
(aka: cpl donner)
djgum@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 19:21:52 EDT
From: Lois Grubb <Loisgrubb@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now (OT)
I've been lurking away, enjoying the discussion about the relative merits of
slash and why it's written, etc, when I saw this comment by Nina, and felt I
ought to reply.
<<Again, I wouldn't call it research. Though, I was just reading about some
scientists researching what body parts spiny lobsters use to make sounds to
scare off predators after shedding their hard shells, so clearly there's no
limit to the moronic stuff people will research.>>
This really isn't moronic stuff, discovering how these sounds are made and
then reproduced could also prevent those same predators from going after less
protected and equally valuable species, leading to a lot more food for a lot
of people. And research into sound has provided a wide range of beneficial
adaptations, from paint stripping to treating kidneystones and gallstones by
breaking them up without invasive surgery.
::::stepping down from lectern and putting down pointer:::: There, now we
can all get back to the interesting stuff <g>
Lois
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:22:59 +0100
From: John Mosby <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
My 2cs (and as I haven't been on-line much at all, forgive any repetition)...
I'm not remotely worried or concerned by people who choose to write slash-fiction. It worries me no more or less than people who are like Mills & Boon, crime-noir, sci-fi or trashy romance novels. By that I mean that people have different opinions, likes and dislikes and as long as it doesn't become obssesive, then to each their own.
As long as most fanficfans realise they are dealing with another person's creation(s) and that they are imposing a vision other than that of the creators, then little harm is done unless a) such fan-work is waved under the noses of those who have official status or b) a slasher is selling material to others which contains characters copyrighted by another.
Those, as we have discussed on many occassions, are roads paved with potential legal problems.
Of course, amongst fan-groups different inferences and styles may have varying levels of acceptability and it is the responsibility of both sides to avoid problems (ie: slashers should not display the work where it is likely to offend people and equally people shouldn't complain of its mere existence if they aren't forced to confront it directly)
Of course, homosexuality can be a thorny problem in itself, given that the sexuality is not illegal (and shouldn't be) but that certain homosexual acts TECHNICALLY are illegal in some areas/States. Sitting purely on the fence here and playing devil's advocate...if buggering someone is illegal and yet forms a part of a widely recognised sub-genre, is it any more/less *acceptable* to fanfic writers than other illegal sexual acts? Would a more S&M story or a story dealing with the taboos of age and fetish be equally acceptable?
Let me be clear: I'm NOT equating under-age sex or suchlike with homosexuality...(I have several gay friends and I see their choice of partners as no more/less discriminate than me saying 'I like redheads')
Nor do I have a problem with a charcater's sexuality, though the type of story I seek out is rarely driven by specific sexuality or trying to write characters to suit my sexual taste (for instance I have no desire to write a piece of fanfic where a pre-death Tara decides she's really straight and wants to get horizontal in the reference section with Giles...hmmm...would making a gay character straight be a thornier and less-PC issue?)
Equally I simply find it disppointing that it seems easier to write two men in a gay relationship than two men who love each other like brothers. I wonder what the reaction from the female contigent would be if I saw two women simply holding hands or supporting each other on screen and declared that I expected "Hot Lesbo action at any moment!!!!" Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Hot Lesbo Action, you understand...but expecting to see it merely because of an emotional bond seems to suggest a limited imagination and one that meant I would probably get disparaging looks from those around me.
All I'm saying that given that fanfic writers can (and should) be able to write whatever they want for personal pleasure, where does the acceptability/appropriateness begin and end?
My answer would be that it begins with the scale and technique of distribution and where it meets a subject-matter that suits/doesn't suit the current moral climate (which is ever-changing).
Like most people I think that some illegalities are stupid and should be made legal...equally I think that some things should never ever be considered in a decent society. In a democracy we don't have to like everything that is available but we must all bear in mind a) the rights of the individual FROM society balanced by b) the rights of the individual TO society.
The bottom line is simply: Write what you want, when you want...but the minute you seek to pass it to a wider audience, expect that it will get other reactions and be judged with a degree of scrutiny other than you might want or expect.
Which is true of any writer or writing...
John
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:25:08 +0100
From: John Mosby <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now (OT)
So....question
Would Flipper/Spiny Lobster slash fiction be acceptable or not?
*ducks*
John
> from: Lois Grubb <Loisgrubb@aol.com>
> date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:21:52
> to: HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU
> subject: Re: [HL] Well & truly a slash thing now (OT)
>
> I've been lurking away, enjoying the discussion about the relative merits of
> slash and why it's written, etc, when I saw this comment by Nina, and felt I
> ought to reply.
>
> <<Again, I wouldn't call it research. Though, I was just reading about some
> scientists researching what body parts spiny lobsters use to make sounds to
> scare off predators after shedding their hard shells, so clearly there's no
> limit to the moronic stuff people will research.>>
>
> This really isn't moronic stuff, discovering how these sounds are made and
> then reproduced could also prevent those same predators from going after less
> protected and equally valuable species, leading to a lot more food for a lot
> of people. And research into sound has provided a wide range of beneficial
> adaptations, from paint stripping to treating kidneystones and gallstones by
> breaking them up without invasive surgery.
>
> ::::stepping down from lectern and putting down pointer:::: There, now we
> can all get back to the interesting stuff <g>
>
> Lois
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 18:26:06 -0500
From: Vicki Farmer <vickita1961@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
I said, in regard to Pat asking Nina how slash constituted "beating up"
on a character
>>Not to put too fine a point on it, but I'd like to know the answer to
>>that question, too.
>>
And Nina replied:
>I feel like there's some point YOU were trying to make. Maybe you could try
>again.
>
Actually, I really just wanted to know the answer to the question. And
I wasn't going to try again, 'cause I've had my hands full lately (which
is why I seldom do more than lurk hereabouts) but having read your
answer and some of the subsequent posts, I actually think I'm _getting_
it; I'm seeing what I didn't understand before, and maybe I do have
something to say.
You said:
>1st--the "beating up" is often quite literal in slash, especially HL slash.
>The sex scenes can be quite violent, bloody & downright brutal. Next
>morning, everyone's all healed & ready to go again--a perk of Immie healing
>powers. The more disturbing variation may be when DM is cast in the
>aggressor/brutalizer role in those stories, so then he gets all angsty w/
>post-coital guilt. Really, it's not pretty, no matter who is literally
>abused.
>
>Also, there's the fact that most slash has not only homosexual sex, but it
>has characters who are less than thrilled about it. NOT happy people,
>enjoying their sexual lifestyle.
>
and some other folks have made similar comments.
Ah ha! I think I know where you're coming from, and I'm actually with
you. I don't like those kinds of stories, either. There's a lot of bad
fic out there (Sturgeon's law applies), and bad characterization, and
stories where the writers are clearly workiing out issues that I don't
*even* want to know about (::: shudder :::). These stories do exist,
and I agree with you; I don't like them either.
But.
That's not all there is to slash.
Now, here's the thing: I don't read very much HL slash. None at all for
the last couple of years, really, so I don't know if that's all that's
coming out in HL slash these days or not. I know that there's been
plenty of HL slash that didn't fit into that mold in the past, but as
for current "releases," I can't speak to that.
I didn't get passionate about slash until I stumbled across Sentinel
slash. I've told a number of people that I thought that what made the
difference for me between HL slash (which I read in a
take-it-or-leave-it kind of way) and Senslash (which was my first
"passionate" slash fandom) could be summed up in the difference in the
tag lines for the two shows: "There can be only one," versus "It's about
friendship." Obviously TCBOO makes for better drama, and HL is by far
the superior _series_, but for slash, TCBOO takes a certain toll (and
indeed, it takes a toll on all of DM's relationships, doesn't it?).
The slash (including HL slash) that I have read and loved isn't abusive,
isn't all hurt and no comfort, isn't an act of brutality on _myself_
just to get through it. On the contrary; the stories are uplifiting;
they celebrate the relationship between the two characters; they *sing*
(and I don't mean lyric fic, heh). The writers who wrote these stories
_loved_ the characters, and they loved the craft of writing, and they
made *magic*.
Since discovering TS, I've moved through several other fandoms with "my"
writers (many of whom started out in HL), and it's been a kick, watching
them write and write and learn and get better, and the prose that
they're producing nowadays is far superior to most of the drek I've seen
in mainstream novels of late. It's just simply glorious, and God, I
hate 'em for stringing those words together so much better than me. ;-)
My name is Vicki, and I am a slash fan.
Vicki F.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 19:37:30 EDT
From: Lois Grubb <Loisgrubb@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now (OT)
In a message dated 09/29/2002 7:25:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
a.j.mosby@btinternet.com writes:
> Would Flipper/Spiny Lobster slash fiction be acceptable or not?
>
Why not, after all, isn't the operative word here "fiction?" And these guys
aren't even copywrited, wrote, written, ....well....at least the Spiny
Lobsters aren't. Hmmmmmmm
Lois - thinking of joining John behind that barricade...apologies to Donna
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 16:41:33 -0700
From: Pat Lawson <plawson@webleyweb.com>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
John wrote:
>Of course, homosexuality can be a thorny problem in itself, given that the
>sexuality is not illegal (and shouldn't be) but that certain homosexual
>acts TECHNICALLY are illegal in some areas/States. Sitting purely on the
>fence here and playing devil's advocate...if buggering someone is illegal
>and yet forms a part of a widely recognised sub-genre, is it any more/less
>*acceptable* to fanfic writers than other illegal sexual acts? Would a
>more S&M story or a story dealing with the taboos of age and fetish be
>equally acceptable?
Last time I looked, beheading people was also illegal. Should illegality
of characters actions be a criteria?
>Like most people I think that some illegalities are stupid and should be
>made legal...equally I think that some things should never ever be
>considered in a decent society. In a democracy we don't have to like
>everything that is available but we must all bear in mind a) the rights of
>the individual FROM society balanced by b) the rights of the individual TO
>society.
"the rights of the individual TO society"? What it the world are you
talking about?
>The bottom line is simply: Write what you want, when you want...but the
>minute you seek to pass it to a wider audience, expect that it will get
>other reactions and be judged with a degree of scrutiny other than you
>might want or expect.
>
>Which is true of any writer or writing...
Yep, even posts to an email list.
Pat
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 18:45:04 -0500
From: Vicki Farmer <vickita1961@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
a.j.mosby@BTINTERNET.COM wrote:
>Equally I simply find it disppointing that it seems easier to write two men in a gay relationship than two men who love each other like brothers. I wonder what the reaction from the female contigent would be if I saw two women simply holding hands or supporting each other on screen and declared that I expected "Hot Lesbo action at any moment!!!!" Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Hot Lesbo Action, you understand...but expecting to see it merely because of an emotional bond seems to suggest a limited imagination and one that meant I would probably get disparaging looks from those around me.
>
*g* Come sit over here by me; I promise not to look at you disparagingly.
This is similar to comments that I get from one of my most favorite-est
fan friends, and I've been trying to put together some kind of
intelligent response for her for quite a while now. It's tough, you
know? Punch lines I'm good at; trying to talk intelligently about the
line between agape and eros, and why do we sometimes feel one thing and
not the other, and when does one slide into the other (pun acknowledged
but not really intended) (honest -- I swear), and isn't the brain the
most important sex organ, and is slash really about loving the person,
not the package? -- gaaaaah... I am unworthy.
*sigh*
I guess if I have to feel like I'm "just a grasshopper"about a subject
for the rest of my life, this is as good as any.
But slash is about all of those things for me.
Vicki F.
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 29 Sep 2002 (#2002-161)
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