There are 10 messages totalling 661 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. OT: PW/JB episode of First Wave (3) 2. Female Immortals Redux (3) 3. EG SPOILER: One for Wendy... (4) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:44:56 -0800 From: Lynn <lloschin@sprynet.com> Subject: OT: PW/JB episode of First Wave Currently scheduled for Saturday April 21 at 9 pm ET/PT. FYI, alum David Tynan is also on the staff on this show. Lynn (See Mary, I didn't even mention Roger Cross, or how beautiful he is.) (And smart, did I mention smart? :) Lynn Loschin Mailto: lloschin@sprynet.com Web: http://home.sprynet.com/~lloschin ICQ#: 308138 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 00:53:48 EST From: Highlandmg@aol.com Subject: Re: OT: PW/JB episode of First Wave Ohhh Lynn Hope we can see him again.. He was so good.. and Funny. Hope the attendance gets up there for Robert to attend. Would also like to see David Tynan.. Have those script covers to sign...... Looking forward to going to this con.... And hopes Lynn is crazy enough to plan another one for 2002. Running like hell Mary ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 23:52:09 -0800 From: "Marian L. Zaouk" <mlozaouk@pacbell.net> Subject: Female Immortals Redux Bridget said: (actually, we're way past due for this topic ;> ) >That female Immortals (much snippage of some excellent points) > want to have to wear diapers *and* sanitary napkins (let's not even > get into the logistical problems of tampons) as strapped on by other > people? Now, I don't have 5+ years of HighL archived, but I seem to recall that some said female immies had no menses? Since "Immortals," per se are a male creation, (now here's a reach, ;>) the monthly female cycle could be considered an 'illness' that becoming immortal cures? Or, possibly more of an anatomical nature - the expulsion of the product of the unfertilized ova is, in effect, a separation of tissue, which could be considered something to be 'cured' by the 'immortal' gene. Hmmmm- and the end result would have to be - that the next cycle occurring after the female 'dies' her first death would remain permanently on hold - no more ova, cuz there's one in suspended animation. Perhaps I should go to the on line archive - lazy me, but I will, I will! Does anyone know of an indexed by topic location? >From The Lurkers' Lounge Marian mlozaouk@pacbell.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:03:43 -0500 From: jjswbt@earthlink.net Subject: Re: EG SPOILER: One for Wendy... >> >> >S >>>> >P >>>> >O >>>> >I >>>> >L >>>> >E >>>> >R >>>> >S >>>> >F >>>> >O >>>> >R >>>> >E >>>> >N >>>> >D >>>> >G >>>> >A >>>> >M >>>> >E >>>> >B >>>> >E >>>> >L >>>> >O >>>> >W >>>> >/ >> >> >/ > Of Sanctuary, I said: >>Again... *why* were they drugged? Everyone up until Duncan was a >>*volunteer*..they could have just been held in "cells" ..with TV and >>books and open doors. Brother Paul's monastery was as safe as anyone >>could want ..they wouldn't have to fight and no one could reach them. Liser tries: >Except, of course, Kalas. > >Technicality. :-) They were still safe in the monastery ..they just had to watch their backs (heads) if they decided to leave. Since they seem to have agreed to perpetual retirement..Kalas was no treat. >> What was it about Sanctuary that attracted them? I'm just not >>seeing it. They volunteered to be shackled on back-boards for >>decades with IV drips and blue gunk up their nose? Why? >I can relate to the concept of wanting to be out of it for awhile, >but not permanently. I don't know that I, personally, would ever >choose to be drugged into oblivion for any stretch of time, but I can >see where others might. Especially others who have been subjected to >the throes of life for centuries on end. But, as Bridet pointed out, they aren't oblivious. If Connor is any example, they dream. How does a 500 year nap sound when it included 500 years or reliving your worst moments too? When you don't even get to wake up and shake off the dreams for a few minutes? I think they would all be insane in short order (hence, perhaps, the shackles.) liser: >I do agree, though, that a comfy place with tv and books and bingo >would probably make more sense. Of course, then you have to worry >about feeding these immortals for eternity. They still have to be fed..it's just intravenously in this case. An eternity of cleaning feeding lines and resetting IV's. I wonder that the Watchers don't just "kill" the Immortals and lock them in air-tight coffins. They would still be "safe" and a lot less bother. > And keeping them entertained. So..they can't pipe in cable TV? <eg> Buy a few books...start a sewing circle? >And from killing one another. Not on HG they can't. > And from leaving. Well, this returns to my earlier point.The Watcher says that Sanctuary's purpose *now* is to prevent the Prize from being won. That implies that it had an earlier function - which I suppose was that which Methos stated- to give Immortals a place to sit out the Game. So...in it's earlier incarnation, wouldn't the Immortals have been given a chance to leave if they wanted to? I may be world weary today...but 200 years from now I might feel differently. My feeling is that the Immortals were only drugged and chained in recent years when Kell was determined to be a threat. Before that, Sanctuary was, IMGLO, more like Brother Paul's monastery. Then...Kell gets declared the "big bad" and one night the Watchers drug the dinner wine and the previously free-to-go Immortals wake up the next morning with blue gunk up their noses .(Well..they *don't* wake up actually) >Maybe the Watchers agreed to take on the task of The Santucary, but >their stipulation was that it has to be their way--with the kids >asleep the whole time they were baby sitting. No..I just can't see it. I think it started out as an Immortal Club Med and became Dungeon Central when the Watchers got scared about Kell. Then they changed the rules and the "volunteers" became conscripts and prisoners. >(you'd think, though, that they would have at least brought in a >barber every now and then)(some watcher's kid had to be in beauty >school...) I still don't understand the eye guards.The Immortals were all drugged , right? What could they see? >(and why was it that only male immortals were in the Santuary?) Because no woman who has lived past 30 is stupid enough to allow herself to be drugged senseless and placed in the care of a bunch of overaged frat boys? Because the Watchers refused to allow the females to pick out their own clothes? Because P/D have always been sexist pigs who only added female characters when forced and only when they could show them in wet t-shirts? >(what does that say about the psyche of the average female immie?) That they mirror mortal women in being much stronger, mentally, that their male counterparts? Wendy(Can anyone imagine Amanda agreeing to wear those ratty robes?) Fairy Killer jjswbt@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:27:39 -0800 From: Lynn <lloschin@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: OT: PW/JB episode of First Wave On 9 Mar 01, at 0:53, Highlandmg@aol.com wrote: > Ohhh Lynn > > Hope we can see him again.. He was so good.. and Funny. Hope the attendance > gets up there for Robert to attend. Would also like to see David Tynan.. Mary, Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to be bringing guest stars from Vancouver except for Ocean and Anthony. Believe me, I'd like to invite Roger too! I'm told that David Tynan is quite shy and would be unlikely to attend. > And hopes Lynn is crazy enough to plan another one for 2002. Mary, geez! >Running like hell That's a very, very good idea :) Lynn Lynn Loschin Mailto: lloschin@sprynet.com Web: http://home.sprynet.com/~lloschin ICQ#: 308138 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:16:52 -0600 From: Bridget Mintz Testa <btesta@hypercon.com> Subject: Re: EG SPOILER: One for Wendy... > >> >> >S >>>>> >P >>>>> >O >>>>> >I >>>>> >L >>>>> >E >>>>> >R >>>>> >S >>>>> >F >>>>> >O >>>>> >R >>>>> >E >>>>> >N >>>>> >D >>>>> >G >>>>> >A >>>>> >M >>>>> >E >>>>> >B >>>>> >E >>>>> >L >>>>> >O >>>>> >W >>>>> >/ > >> >> >/ >> Wendy said: > >But, as Bridet pointed out, they aren't oblivious. If Connor is any >example, they dream. How does a 500 year nap sound when it included >500 years or reliving your worst moments too? When you don't even >get to wake up and shake off the dreams for a few minutes? I think >they would all be insane in short order (hence, perhaps, the >shackles.) That's Bridget, with a "g" (otherwise, people might think it rhymes with "bidet," and we don't want to go there.) But, yeah, I did say that. I also pointed out that, if the goal was to "forget," which it seemed to be for Connor, then why agree to be drugged into dreams where you re-live everything? And frankly, I just can't see Connor agreeing to be shackled, period. And why? I mean, shackles and drugs together seems sorta like belt *and* suspenders. Or wearing a garter belt to keep your pantyhose up. Redundant, in a word. Wendy: >They still have to be fed..it's just intravenously in this case. An >eternity of cleaning feeding lines and resetting IV's. I wonder >that the Watchers don't just "kill" the Immortals and lock them in >air-tight coffins. They would still be "safe" and a lot less bother. And don't forget about diaper-duty--far worse than intravenous feeding. It all seems disgusting, and I can't imagine the "princes of the universe" agreeing to it. I also don't see the Watchers being all that thrilled about it, either. As for killing the Immies and locking them into coffins, well, somebody would have to keep killing them, over and over, wouldn't they? Not a pleasant task, either, methinks. Wendy: >No..I just can't see it. I think it started out as an Immortal Club >Med and became Dungeon Central when the Watchers got scared about >Kell. Then they changed the rules and the "volunteers" became >conscripts and prisoners. There's no indication that the Watchers became afraid of Kell, at least as far as I remember (haven't seen it again since it first came out). Joe told Duncan all about the kills Kell had, but there wasn't any indication that Sanctuary had anything particular to do with Kell. I got the impression that Kell was seen as just one more bad Immie. If Sanctuary had been about Kell, then wouldn't the Watchers have been more prepared for his cheatin' ways? And this is a little OT, but that whole business of how many kills Kell had never impressed me one iota. Kell, as an Immortal, was younger than Connor--not by much, but by a few decades. And Connor took out the Kurgan, who had about three thousand years of beheadings to his credit. So Kell was more powerful and worse than the Kurgan? No way. Or if the Kurgan example doesn't resonate, how about Grayson? There was a guy who also had a few thousand years of beheading and warfare behind him. Grayson was a heckuva lot more dangerous than Kell. We never *saw* anything to indicate Kell's "power" as an Immortal; we were only told about it. And that is lousy storytelling, as any freshman creative writing student can tell you. Besides, the whole idea of calculating an Immortal's "power" by counting up the number of heads he (or she) has taken seems ridiculous from the start. Everything Kell did was done by cheating ... does that make him more "powerful" than Duncan or Connor? Does it make him a better swordsman? And how did he get to be a good swordsman? Did we see him in even one fair fight, or even just practicing a single time? Kell was a lunatic and a cheat. He didn't work for me as a powerful enemy, and so the whole premise of EG didn't work for me. And, back to the topic, Sanctuary didn't work for me, either. I cannot see a group of people as paranoid and survival-oriented as Immortals agreeing to be shackled and drugged for centuries. If the *Watchers* started out with the bingo/Club Med environment and decided to change over to Dungeons and Dragons, well, I think any group of people as paranoid and survival-oriented as Immortals would have SENSED THAT SOMETHING WAS GOING ON. And I don't think they'd have just gone quietly or been easily hoodwinked. Wendy: >I still don't understand the eye guards.The Immortals were all >drugged , right? What could they see? The eye guards were there to protect the Watchers from having to see the really big eye boogers the Immortals grew over the years. Bridget -- Bridget Mintz Testa btesta@hypercon.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:16:52 -0600 From: Bridget Mintz Testa <btesta@hypercon.com> Subject: Re: Female Immortals Redux I said: > >That female Immortals (much snippage of some excellent points) >> want to have to wear diapers *and* sanitary napkins (let's not even >> get into the logistical problems of tampons) as strapped on by other >> people? Then Marian said: > >Now, I don't have 5+ years of HighL archived, but I seem to recall >that some said female immies had no menses? Yeah, some said they didn't. And some others said they did. It's never been resolved, one way or the other. There isn't any way to resolve it, unless Amanda (or some other female Immie) walks on screen and says either, "It's that time of the month again," or "Tampons? How silly. I haven't had a period in X hundred years! Immortal women don't have periods, dearie." I'm of the opinion that female Immies do have periods, because it's a normal female function. Marian suggested, rather inventively, that menstruation could be thought of as a kind of "illness," and this reminds me of the hoops female astronauts had to jump through regarding the same subject at NASA. NASA doctors and the NASA establishment (99.9999% male) wanted to view menstruation as a medical issue; the female astronauts insisted it was merely a hygiene issue. Ultimately, the female astronauts won. Bridget -- Bridget Mintz Testa btesta@hypercon.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:22:25 -0500 From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Female Immortals Redux At 02:52 AM 03/09/01, Marian L. Zaouk wrote: >Now, I don't have 5+ years of HighL archived, but I seem to recall >that some said female immies had no menses? Since "Immortals," per >se are a male creation, (now here's a reach, ;>) the monthly female >cycle could be considered an 'illness' that becoming immortal >cures? How/when did immortals become a male creation? If you're talking about the Highlander universe having been created by a man, then that's kind of irrelevant to the discussion cuz he never even addressed this issue. The women who wrote for the series for many years never addressed it either. I don't think the gender of the "creator" of the fictional universe is relevant to a fan discussion of whether or not female immies have a monthly cycle. -- Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:36:05 -1000 From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net> Subject: Re: EG SPOILER: One for Wendy... > >> >> >S > >>>> >P > >>>> >O > >>>> >I > >>>> >L > >>>> >E > >>>> >R > >>>> >S > >>>> >F > >>>> >O > >>>> >R > >>>> >E > >>>> >N > >>>> >D > >>>> >G > >>>> >A > >>>> >M > >>>> >E > >>>> >B > >>>> >E > >>>> >L > >>>> >O > >>>> >W > >>>> >/ > >> >> >/ > > Wendy-- >>> But, as Bridet pointed out, they aren't oblivious. If Connor is any example, they dream. How does a 500 year nap sound when it included 500 years or reliving your worst moments too? When you don't even get to wake up and shake off the dreams for a few minutes? I think they would all be insane in short order (hence, perhaps, the shackles.)>>> I agree. If Connor was as tortured by the overall effects of centuries of travail as we are led to believe, then he'd make sure he was getting oblivion at Sanctuary--not being drugged & shackled, condemned to forever replay personal hell in his mind. And that does seem to be the general effect of the blue goo, since we saw it happen to both Connor & Duncan. And I just don't believe _anyone_ would agree to how we saw the Immies being treated at Sanctuary--drugs, shackles, IVs, nastiness in general. BHg would be better, surely. Or--buying your own deserted & remote island, becoming a monk, hooking up w/ a powerful/ardent Immie protector, buying a bar situated on HG & living upstairs, becoming a closet Watcher & keeping tabs on the baddies that way, etc.--any of the other ways we can imagine or saw non-combatant Immies stay out of The Game. > I wonder that the Watchers don't just "kill" the Immortals and lock them in air-tight > coffins. They would still be "safe" and a lot less bother. And "happier." At least, they wouldn't be semi-consciously miserable, as we saw them. It wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic, though, which is probably why we didn't see it on film. Really, it's phenomenally dumb for these particular Watchers (who don't even pay lip service to non-interference) _not_ to have a couple "dead" Immies stashed someplace, just in case. > >And from killing one another. > > Not on HG they can't. Darn right they can't, according to all HL canon except HL:EG's theatrical release. I guess we ignore that now, in favor of the producers' reconstruction--like Zeist. Reminds me how screwed up the HL franchise is, always has been, & always will be. >>> My feeling is that the Immortals were only drugged and chained in recent years when Kell was determined to be a threat. Before that, Sanctuary was, IMGLO, more like Brother Paul's monastery. Then...Kell gets declared the "big bad" and one night the Watchers drug the dinner wine and the previously free-to-go Immortals wake up the next morning with blue gunk up their noses .(Well..they *don't* wake up actually) SNIP I think it started out as an Immortal Club Med and became Dungeon Central when the Watchers got scared about Kell. Then they changed the rules and the "volunteers" became conscripts and prisoners.>>> I see your point, but I got the feeling that Connor was rather ashamed of going into Sanctuary &/or sickened on some level by what he was going to do. If he thought he was just doing Immortal Club Med (& it was no big deal, not truly hellish, probably temporary, etc.), why not tell DM about it (in the NYC FB scene, or after Rachel was killed & before Connor disappeared)? Why just vanish? Apparently, because he knew that if he spilled the beans DM would be horrified, worried, disgusted, etc.--& try to talk Connor out of it. Of course, maybe Connor was just too proud to admit he was mimicking DM's behavior that we saw in The Gathering's FB--retreating to the island after Little Deer's death; Connor didn't really approve of that. >>>Because P/D have always been sexist pigs who only added female characters when forced and only when they could show them in wet t-shirts?>>> We have a winner.... > (Can anyone imagine Amanda agreeing to wear those ratty robes?) No, but I can see her wrinkling her perfect little nose at the stench in there. Nina geiger@maui.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:27:50 -0500 From: jjswbt@earthlink.net Subject: Re: EG SPOILER: One for Wendy... >> >> >> >S >>>>>> >P >>>>>> >O >>>>>> >I >>>>>> >L >>>>>> >E >>>>>> >R >>>>>> >S >>>>>> >F >>>>>> >O >>>>>> >R >>>>>> >E >>>>>> >N >>>>>> >D >>>>>> >G >>>>>> >A >>>>>> >M >>>>>> >E >>>>>> >B >>>>>> >E >>>>>> >L >>>>>> >O >>>>>> >W >>>>>> >/ >> >> >> >/ >>> > I said: >>But, as Bridet pointed out, they aren't oblivious. If Connor is any >>example, they dream. How does a 500 year nap sound when it included >>500 years or reliving your worst moments too? When you don't even >>get to wake up and shake off the dreams for a few minutes? I think >>they would all be insane in short order (hence, perhaps, the >>shackles.) >That's Bridget, with a "g" (otherwise, people might think it rhymes >with "bidet," and we don't want to go there.) I swear there was a "g" in that when I hit "send". Damn cyber-thieves! Me: >>They still have to be fed..it's just intravenously in this case. An >>eternity of cleaning feeding lines and resetting IV's. I wonder >>that the Watchers don't just "kill" the Immortals and lock them in >>air-tight coffins. They would still be "safe" and a lot less bother. Brid*g*et: >And don't forget about diaper-duty- No..I insist on forgetting that. I just refuse to consider anyone wiping Connor's arse for 10 years. >As for killing the Immies and locking them into coffins, well, >somebody would have to keep killing them, over and over, wouldn't >they? Not a pleasant task, either, methinks. No..I was thinking of Nefertiri. She was dead when placed in her sarcophagus and didn't revive until the seal was broken. She was dead...and didn't need "re-killing" to keep her that way. She also didn't need food or diapers<eg>. So..if the Watchers had killed the Immortals (gas, bullets, poison) and placed them in nice sealed caskets, they could have just piled them in a bank vault somewhere and gone out for pizza. Me: >>No..I just can't see it. I think it started out as an Immortal Club >>Med and became Dungeon Central when the Watchers got scared about >>Kell. Then they changed the rules and the "volunteers" became >>conscripts and prisoners. Brid*g*et: >There's no indication that the Watchers became afraid of Kell, at >least as far as I remember (haven't seen it again since it first came >out). Joe told Duncan all about the kills Kell had, but there wasn't >any indication that Sanctuary had anything particular to do with >Kell. I got the impression that Kell was seen as just one more bad >Immie. If Sanctuary had been about Kell, then wouldn't the Watchers >have been more prepared for his cheatin' ways? No...there was a statement that the mission had changed...when Kell went "renegade"....when they captured Duncan and the Watcher is trying to justify what they have done (kidnapping him.). As for the Watchers not being more prepared..it screams plot devise. TPTB needed Kell to massacre a bunch of helpless Immortals..so they created a situation (however unlikely) that allowed it to happen. >Besides, the whole idea of calculating an Immortal's "power" by >counting up the number of heads he (or she) has taken seems >ridiculous from the start. Everything Kell did was done by cheating >... does that make him more "powerful" than Duncan or Connor? Does >it make him a better swordsman? And how did he get to be a good >swordsman? Did we see him in even one fair fight, or even just >practicing a single time? Kell was a lunatic and a cheat. He didn't >work for me as a powerful enemy, and so the whole premise of EG >didn't work for me. TPTB have never made it clear what gets transferred and how much is "usable" immediately. Duncan has killed some bad mothers....he ought to be as powerful as they come..and yet Joe seemed to think Duncan was in trouble against Kell - who seemed to be picking off losers. Is quantity *really* more important than quality? If it is just quantity..then Duncan could have run out and killed *any* Immortal and ended up just as "powerful" as he was after killing Connor. If only numbers matter, Duncan+Connor is the same as Duncan+Benny Carbasa...right? (And I still want to know how many Immortals *Methos* has killed.) >And, back to the topic, Sanctuary didn't work for me, either. I >cannot see a group of people as paranoid and survival-oriented as >Immortals agreeing to be shackled and drugged for centuries. I guess we are suppose to believe that those who agreed to Sanctuary were no longer paranoid or survival conscious. > If the >*Watchers* started out with the bingo/Club Med environment and >decided to change over to Dungeons and Dragons, well, I think any >group of people as paranoid and survival-oriented as Immortals would >have SENSED THAT SOMETHING WAS GOING ON. And I don't think they'd >have just gone quietly or been easily hoodwinked. Drugs..in their food one night. No chance to realize the rules were now different. >>I still don't understand the eye guards.The Immortals were all >>drugged , right? What could they see? >The eye guards were there to protect the Watchers from having to see >the really big eye boogers the Immortals grew over the years. Ok...that was an image I didn't need. Wendy(That's Bridget with a G, not Bridet with a D.......) Fairy Killer jjswbt@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html ------------------------------ End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 8 Mar 2001 to 9 Mar 2001 (#2001-92) ************************************************************