HIGHLA-L Digest - 18 Jul 2001 (#2001-209)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@LISTS.PSU.EDU)
Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:00:03 -0400
There are 14 messages totalling 717 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. CAH and the down-slide of HL (2)
2. OT Inquiry: The other British Peter W. (5)
3. ATTN: All Fan Fic writers (3)
4. Morality
5. bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All Fan Fic writers) (2)
6. K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writer s)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:49:54 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: CAH and the down-slide of HL
In a message dated 7/18/01 9:33:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
a.j.mosby@btinternet.com writes:
<< Agreed. Until you threw in those last words and neglected to also add 'one
frequently employed by fans who dislike Methos' which I'm guessing would be
used by the other side of the equation, right? After all, it's only fair to
note there are extreme/passionate views on BOTH sides. I think that the
pro-Cassandra lobby are just as loud as the anti-Cassandra voices when they
want to be
>>
I think Leah's point was that it is very rare to find a pro-Cassandra fan who
*doesn't* like Methos. They are out there, I have no doubt, but they are
rare. And, yet, it is often the case that those of us who do like Cassandra
are inevitably accused of hating Methos, as if it's something that just must
follow. In fact, I can remember a situation where Leah was accused of not
only hating Methos, but of hating Peter Wingfield by extension and there was
even an implication that she would stalk him with the intent to do him harm.
This was an extreme (and absurd) reaction, obviously, but there you go. The
fact that Cassandra was defended obviously equated hatred of Methos and even
Peter Wingfield in the mind of that fan (and who knows? Perhaps others.). It
truly is inaccurate to say that the pro-Cassandra fans wish to vilify Methos.
Choosing to examine and hold Methos accountable for his past, is not the same
thing as hating him. As Leah said, Methos is my favorite character and he has
been for years. Cassandra is someone who I find interesting because of her
historical and emotional ties to my favorite character.
Annie CWPack
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:47:17 -0500
From: Jen <Data@cyberg8t.com>
Subject: Re: OT Inquiry: The other British Peter W.
Jette Goldie wrote:
>
> No but I've always been very fond of his dad. :-)
>
> Jette
> Glory may be fleeting, but obscurity is forever!
> bosslady@scotlandmail.com
> http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html
> (Edward Woodward, aka Callan or The Equaliser)
Ohhh, they both were in an ep of Crusade together. Pretty nifty. You should check him
out, Jette. He's wonderful!! He's even in something with a Highlander alumnus: The
Patriot. Peter Woodward plays the British Brigadier General, O'Hara. He's only in a
few scenes, but they are all very much worth it! :)
Jen
Lurker Girl
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:06:17 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: OT Inquiry: The other British Peter W.
>
> Ohhh, they both were in an ep of Crusade together. Pretty nifty.
I know, I saw it.
>You should check him
> out, Jette. He's wonderful!! He's even in something with a Highlander
alumnus: The
> Patriot. Peter Woodward plays the British Brigadier General, O'Hara.
He's only in a
> few scenes, but they are all very much worth it! :)
Just feels a bit like - oh I dunno - cradle-snatching? Not that I'm
*that* much older than Woodward Jnr, but I've been lusting after
Woodward Snr for 30 years ;-)
Jette
Glory may be fleeting, but obscurity is forever!
bosslady@scotlandmail.com
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:16:18 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: OT Inquiry: The other British Peter W.
So what you're saying, Jette, is that... in your eyes: all Woodwards are
equal, but some are more Equalisers than others?
;P
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jette Goldie" <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [HL] OT Inquiry: The other British Peter W.
> >
> > Ohhh, they both were in an ep of Crusade together. Pretty nifty.
>
> I know, I saw it.
>
> >You should check him
> > out, Jette. He's wonderful!! He's even in something with a Highlander
> alumnus: The
> > Patriot. Peter Woodward plays the British Brigadier General, O'Hara.
> He's only in a
> > few scenes, but they are all very much worth it! :)
>
> Just feels a bit like - oh I dunno - cradle-snatching? Not that I'm
> *that* much older than Woodward Jnr, but I've been lusting after
> Woodward Snr for 30 years ;-)
>
> Jette
> Glory may be fleeting, but obscurity is forever!
> bosslady@scotlandmail.com
> http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:19:44 -0700
From: Jax B <jaxx_b@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OT Inquiry: The other British Peter W.
Isn't there a pun warning on this list? ;-)
JB - who would give equal time to both Sr. and
Jr.
--- "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
wrote:
> So what you're saying, Jette, is that... in
> your eyes: all Woodwards are
> equal, but some are more Equalisers than
> others?
>
> ;P
>
> John
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jette Goldie" <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
> To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 7:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [HL] OT Inquiry: The other British
> Peter W.
>
>
> > >
> > > Ohhh, they both were in an ep of Crusade
> together. Pretty nifty.
> >
> > I know, I saw it.
> >
> > >You should check him
> > > out, Jette. He's wonderful!! He's even in
> something with a Highlander
> > alumnus: The
> > > Patriot. Peter Woodward plays the British
> Brigadier General, O'Hara.
> > He's only in a
> > > few scenes, but they are all very much
> worth it! :)
> >
> > Just feels a bit like - oh I dunno -
> cradle-snatching? Not that I'm
> > *that* much older than Woodward Jnr, but I've
> been lusting after
> > Woodward Snr for 30 years ;-)
> >
> > Jette
> > Glory may be fleeting, but obscurity is
> forever!
> > bosslady@scotlandmail.com
> >
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html
=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"As for me, they can have my gun. But they'll get my book when
they pry my cold, dead fingers off of the spine." Stephen King
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:10:10 -0700
From: J Raumo <jraumo@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
Nina writes:
>>Yet, I NEVER got an answer back from Jo (even after
I provided her the text) as to exactly what language
in the Fair Use clause she thinks shelters fanfic.<<
In point of fact I provided Nina with the reference to
the text of the Copyright Law, something Nina admitted
in her previous post when she wrote:
>>Just to get you started, here's the Fair Use
provision from the govt. site above-- <<
The 'above' in this statement refers to the link I
provided for her. I even cited the exact section
that details Fair Use, the section that Nina
subsequently pasted into her post. I hold all the
people on this list capable of following the links for
themselves. Nina, apparently, doesn't.
I originally chose not to answer Nina's post because I
believe Nina is no longer sincerely interested in
debating the issue but is only interested in
prolonging the conflict over it. However, since Nina
brought the subject up again, and so politely, I'll
answer. This will be my last post on the subject as
I believe all positions, both for and against, have
been thoroughly stated. All that is left now is to
fight over who demands the last, strident word.
Nina wrote in her previous post:
>>The law states pretty baldly the very few
circumstances that can equal Fair Use--"criticism,
comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple
copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research."
Which, exactly, of those does fanfic fall under?
--Criticism?--nope
--Comment?--nope
--news reporting?--nope
--teaching?--nope
--scholarship?--nope
--research?--nope
Oops--out of options. <<
The list that Nina refers to (taken from the opening
paragraph of the Fair Use section of the 1976
Copyright law) is not an exhaustive list of those
situations covered by Fair Use. Let me quote from
Justice Souter's opinion from the 2 Live Crew case
(Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music) 'The text employs
the terms "including" and "such as" in the preamble
paragraph to indicate the "illustrative and not
limitative" function of the examples given ...'
Sony v. Universal Studio established that home taping
a TV show for later viewing (time-shifting) was fair
use. Time-shifting is not on Nina's list.
Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music upheld parody as fair
use. Parody is not on Nina's list. Let me state,
lest my words be misconstrued, that I am not
suggesting that all fan fiction is time-shifting or
that all fan fiction is parody. That would be
absurd. I am stating that Nina's list is not an
exhaustive list of all situations covered by fair use
and I am backing up my statement with two examples of
situations of fair use not covered on that list and
with the opinion of a US Supreme Court judge. If
there are two Fair Uses not delineated, reasonably
there could be more.
A finding that fan fiction is Fair Use will hinge on
how fan fiction fulfills the four statutory factors
outlined in the law. For Nina's sake I will copy
those four factors again:
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including
whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for
nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used
in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market
for or value of the copyrighted work.
I believe that fan fiction is a transformative use of
the original copyrighted material. It serves a
different function from the original work. It is
non-commercial in nature and has no negative effect on
the value of the copyrighted material. For these
reasons, I believe that fan fiction is fair use and
therefor not an infringement of copyright. Nina is,
of course, free to disagree with me but until there is
case law that addresses this issue her opinion is no
more valid than mine.
Jo Raumo
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:04:59 -0400
From: KLZ <zklee@patriot.net>
Subject: Re: OT Inquiry: The other British Peter W.
Jette Goldie wrote:
>
> >
> > Ohhh, they both were in an ep of Crusade together. Pretty nifty.
>
> I know, I saw it.
Unless I'm mistaken, Jr. was in an early 80's production of
"Sense and Sensibility". He played Willoughby.
ZK (Peter Firth from "Warmonger" played wazzisname in Northanger
Abby made about the same time)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:26:27 -0400
From: Trilby <trilby23@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Morality
Leah wrote:
> Exactly my point. But so many fundamental believers do. You and I are
> actually in agreement on this point, Rottie. I love the bible, for what it
> is. I simply have a problem with hypocritical literalists ("It's all
> immutable and all really historical--but I'm going to ignore the parts that
> make me uncomfortable and rave on and on about those that suit my personal
> agendas.")
I've polled a few of my Christian friends of various denominations
about this from time to time, and the current "Theologically
Correct" POV is that only the New Testament "counts" anymore.
The Old Testament is prophecy, history, and poetry; the New
Testament contains God's Final Word On The Subject (preferably
with everything Jesus speaks printed in red *G*).
My friends from churches that ordain women still can't explain to
me how they reconcile that with Paul's unequivocal statement: "I
do not allow a woman to teach, or to have authority over a man;
she must keep silent." ;-)
-------------------- Trilby
"Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were
sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but
she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."
- "Change of Life" by Judith Collas
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:04:35 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
In a message dated 7/18/01 4:10:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jraumo@yahoo.com
writes:
<< For these
reasons, I believe that fan fiction is fair use and
therefor not an infringement of copyright. Nina is,
of course, free to disagree with me but until there is
case law that addresses this issue her opinion is no
more valid than mine. >>
Well done, Jo. Thank you for such a succinct delineation of the situation. I
agree with you, as well. I believe that fan fiction is a "fair use" of most
copyrighted material and unless and until there *is* case law to say
otherwise, it is a complete fallacy that cannot be backed up for anyone to
claim that fan fiction is "illegal."
Annie CWPack
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:32:19 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
Lynn--
> "Some mental connection" between being "a religious and conservative
> person" is a far cry from his "reaction" being *solely* "due to his
> religious beliefs". There are about three important distinctions
> between those two statements. You misquoted and therefore changed my
> meaning.
No, because I never said anything about "solely." You added that just now,
to try to create an out for yourself, I suppose.
> And if you are truly unable to understand the connection between being
> a "religious and conservative person" and finding slash distasteful,
> then I really can't help you. It seems rather obvious.
OK, so you DO think the religious & conservative stuff is why VP was upset
about slash. In fact, you think it's obvious. So, you were just arguing to
be, well, Lynn, I guess.
The question is WHY you assumed that connection re: VP, specifically.
Religion & conservatism may have something to do w/ _some_ people's
reactions to slash, but you weren't talking generally--you were talking
about VP specifically. I know that religion & conservatism have nothing to
do w/ MY reaction to slash, specifically, so I wondered (& still do) why you
assumed they connected to VP's reaction to slash, specifically.
Carmel--
>>>I would defy you or anyone to find where I said that sex between two men
was
decadent. What I recall saying was: "Don't tell me that Methos has
lived that long, through some of the most decadent empires in the world, and
not had male lovers and orgies.">>>
And thus you DID use the word "decadent" in talking about sex between 2 or
more men. (I took the word "orgies" as you used it there to refer to a
group of men having sex--as in "male lovers & orgies." But that hardly
matters, since "decadent" as you used it seems to apply to both "male
lovers" & "orgies.") And that's WHY I asked my question.
>>>the fact that empires may be regarded as decadent does not mean
that every activity that takes place in that empire is decadent.>>>
But you weren't talking about every-day activities; you were talking about
sex that specifically occurred in _decadent_ empires, & you defined that for
Methos as probably having had "male lovers and orgies." Still seems an odd
attitude for you.
>>>If you would like to have one of those
discussion I would be delighted to try and engage with you.>>>
Ooh--you make that sound so...decadent. Not that there's anything wrong w/
that, of course. But, it's just not my cup of tea.
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:59:54 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
Pat--
> I'm sorry that no one seems to answer your questions Nina. Might that be
> because of the way you phrase them?
I think it's usually because they can't come up w/ an answer that they like.
> I don't believe
> distributing fanfic is immoral because it does not violate my moral
> code/philosophy. Since I neither read nor write fanfic, my personal
> pleasure does not enter into my opinion of it's morality. You are, of
> course, free to feel otherwise. That does not mean your opinion on the
> subject is any more valid than mine.
Are you so willing to allow everyone his/her own personal moral code when
your ox is being gored? It's OK for someone to steal from you, because they
want what you have? It's OK for someone to speed down the highway & kill
your best friend, because they were in a hurry? Liked driving drunk? Only
the laws you feel strongly about should be followed/enforced?
> Fanfic may or may not be ubiquitous on the internet, but that does not
make
> it ubiquitious in the real world. Most US homes contain VCRs, but only
> 50% are on the internet. A large majority of US households tape tv
> programs of some variety from time to time.
_Taping_ is fine per the law & not under discussion. Most people who tape
shows do it for their own convenience--not to ship to someone else in trade
or for a fee. _That's_ much closer to fanfic.
John--
>>>Nina may be fond of talking loudly in libraries>>>
Is that a quaint British way of saying something nice or something nasty?
At least I DO patronize libraries, & bookstores....
>>>If someone copies my Impact/Dreamwatch work and distributes it without my
permission (for no profit, minimal profit or that great big whopping yacht
moored off Monte Carlo) I'm still going to kick their arses over it. >>>
Ok, you should.
>>>The
action is wrong on a variety of levels. One, it's basically hi-jacking my
work, ignoring the time it took me to complete it and is basically standing
on the shoulders of someone else (Cue the Ian Malcolm speech in the original
Jurassic Park). Two, it negates my choice as to where the work is placed. I
write in specific styles for specific outlets and have made arrangements
based on that. Three, the magazine outlet immediately loses the exclusive
and why the hell should anybody buy a magazine if they can get it for
free/less elsewhere? Four - if it's an interview, it was probably organised
under restrictions as to where it would appear. Actors don't care if someone
hi-jacked my work - they just won't talk to me again if a deal is seemingly
broken. Infringers (is that a word?) either don't think or don't care about
any of the deals done and the implications of their actions on me. For all
these reasons and others, any careless reproducers of my work will be
stomped on gently and any deliberate attempt will see legal action by either
myself or the magazine in question.>>>
OK, how about if I not only scan & print out your HL interviews as a lovely
set to distribute far & wide via the Internet, but I add several pages of
original artwork, illustrating the interviews??? Let's see.... I create
amazing renderings of all the HL characters. I fancy myself quite an
artist, & HL really inspires me; oddly, no one wanted to look at my work,
until now, when suddenly everyone interested in HL wants to see my stuff &
people say I'm really, really talented! I, personally, see a lot of slashy
subtext in HL, so some of the artwork is of the guys "discovering" each
other, in anatomically correct detail. Of course, I give you & Impact full
credit & make it clear I just added the artwork--so please don't sue me. My
net friends & I trade this stuff around a lot--everyone's doing it! No
one's getting hurt, & I hope no one waves my work in front of the Impact
people--they really don't want to know. I really, really love doing this, &
it's such fun, you know? People who don't like it don't have to look at it.
I hope people just turn their heads, & those who don't are just being mean.
So, tell me please, what's the difference between that, & fanfic distributed
on the net?
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:18:13 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
Jo, I deleted all your protests about this & that, because I couldn't find
one worth answering individually. In total, I quoted the Fair Use clause
for everyone's reference, & I was hoping you could point to what exactly in
it _you_ see as protecting fanfic. Sorry you found that so problematic, but
I'm not surprised.
> The list that Nina refers to (taken from the opening
> paragraph of the Fair Use section of the 1976
> Copyright law) is not an exhaustive list of those
> situations covered by Fair Use.
I never said it was. It's a starting point, & you seemed to need it.
> Sony v. Universal Studio established that home taping
> a TV show for later viewing (time-shifting) was fair
> use. Time-shifting is not on Nina's list.
> Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music upheld parody as fair
> use. Parody is not on Nina's list. Let me state,
> lest my words be misconstrued, that I am not
> suggesting that all fan fiction is time-shifting or
> that all fan fiction is parody. That would be
> absurd.
I agree. However, if that's all that's been added to the Fair Use act by
the courts, fanfic really isn't faring too well, is it?
> If
> there are two Fair Uses not delineated, reasonably
> there could be more.
Sorry, but the law doesn't work that way. The law is what is stated by the
legislature, as interpreted by the courts. So, we're back to the law's text
(which offers no protection for fanfic) & the 2 extensions you mention,
which you admit would be absurd applied to fanfic.
You can't just say that fanfic _will_ be or _should_ be included by the
courts. It hasn't yet been, & there's not even a trend in that direction.
Your saying you think fanfic is covered by an undelineated (& so far
unelucidated by the courts) Fair Use is as ridiculous as my saying I bet
another as yet unknown Fair Use will at some point cover distributing Impact
interviews w/ original artwork illustrations, or selling homemade HL episode
tapes on EBAY--so I'm gonna go ahead & do it now. It doesn't work that way.
> Nina is,
> of course, free to disagree with me but until there is
> case law that addresses this issue her opinion is no
> more valid than mine.
Yes, it is. My opinion reflects the current state of the law. Yours is
highly speculative & biased pie in the sky.
> This will be my last post on the subject
Well, that's one way to handle it....
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:32:55 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: CAH and the down-slide of HL
Leah--
> Correction; Cassandra was violently vilified for *years* after CaH/Rev by
> many of the same fans who thought Bronze Age Methos was the sexiest thing
> that ever lived. She had committed the unpardonable sin of hating their
> blue-faced honey, and deserved to die for such specifics as carrying a
grudge
> for the murder of her father and having overly long fingernails.
Are we about to the point where Leah & Annie tag-team to conclude most fans
who dislike Cassie really feel that way, not because of the stated reasons
re: manipulation of DM, her blatant stupidity, or taking "victim" to an
all-time limit, but (even if we don't realize it ourselves) because we are
sexually jealous of her for sleeping w/ both DM & Methos? Because, I always
like that part of this "debate," & this time around I'll be particularly
interested to see if a certain "strange bedfellows" situation holds or
explodes under the strain.
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 21:39:53 EDT
From: Andrea Cheney <Ac1087@aol.com>
Subject: Re: K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writer s)
In a message dated 7/16/01 1:58:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, geiger@maui.net
writes:
<< > Nina said: <<..OK, so you're saying that Methos did all he did for DM
> _because he in lust_???..>>
> Carmel: ROTFLMAO...er...no, Nina...I'm not saying that.....
Nina said:
>Then, Carmel, you should be more careful in how you communicate.
> Nina: <<..So, you are saying that sex between 2 men is decadent?...>>
> Carmel: ROTFLMAO...er...no, Nina...I'm not saying that.....
Nina said:
> Then, Carmel, you should be more careful in how you communicate.
> Nina: <<..Huh? If "damaging the franchise" is the standard, how come BP
> allowed HL2, HL3, season 6 of HL:TS, Raven, & HL:EG?..>>
> Carmel: Why don't you ask him Nina??
Nina Said:
The better question is--Why didn't YOU ask him?
Me:
You two are really friends? Right?
--Andrea Cheney
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 18 Jul 2001 (#2001-209)
************************************************