HIGHLA-L Digest - 15 Jul 2001 (#2001-202)
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There are 9 messages totalling 501 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. HIGHLA-L Digest - 15 Jul 2001 - Special issue (#2001-200)
2. If you don't like it... (2)
3. K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writer s)
4. checking (3)
5. Tracker
6. More about Slash. Same Sex warning (was Re: K/S, sociology and other
stuff
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Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:47:20 -0700
From: "M. Vrzoc" <A_Boleyn@excite.com>
Subject: Re: HIGHLA-L Digest - 15 Jul 2001 - Special issue (#2001-200)
Leah said"
> At least one did. I understand that one of the main actors from DUE SOUTH
> spoke on the subject in a magazine interview, some while back. He was
> sympathetic and bemused on the topic. Don't have the details, but it even
> stunned the fans. (Someone have more detailed info?)
Although I thought I had a transcript of the original article, I was either
wrong or can't find it so ... excerpted from the Serge list web page:
Paul Gross, after discovering slash fiction, in the October 1997 issue of
*Elm Street*: "I tell you, slash fiction is going to go crazy when they see
the new guy. He is really good-looking and sexy, the dangerous side of
Fraser. It will be totally homoerotic. How can I see this stuff? Where do I
go on the Internet?"
M. Vrzoc
A_Boleyn@excite.com
_______________________________________________________
Send a cool gift with your E-Card
http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 20:57:39 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: If you don't like it...
Is this the time to admit I endulge in Homeopathic porn?
It's like hetrosexual porn, except I only use natural ingredients.
John
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:03:30 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: If you don't like it...
John:
> Is this the time to admit I endulge in Homeopathic porn?
>
> It's like hetrosexual porn, except I only use natural ingredients.
:::::muffled splutter:::::::
<g>
Jette
Glory may be fleeting, but obscurity is forever!
bosslady@scotlandmail.com
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:02:26 +1000
From: Carmel Macpherson <Carmel@stuartfieldhouse.com>
Subject: Re: K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writer s)
Hi all
I'm about to race out the door but wanted to get a quick reply away - if for
no other reason to thank Marina for carrying the load on this very
interesting thread and try and share it around a bit :-))
Liser said: <<...I do so love it when we agree, Carmel. It's such a rare
occurrence.
Especially when the topic is my own brilliance. <g>...>>
More LOLs!! Now now - that isn't true at all :-)
Liser: <<.. I blame Methos for the infusion of so much slash.<g>..>>
And here we are in utter agreement once again.
Liser: <<...I can buy Methos as bi-sexual (though I don't see any canonical
evidence for
it--everything is to the contrary...). But, I'm sorry, I just don't
believe that Duncan is. And forget about Richie. ...>>
Ah - but I never mentioned Richie as bi-sexual. I spoke of Methos and
Duncan. You see I don't think or aruge that you are wrong in terms of what
you see and saw on the screen. But I saw something different - something
that spoke to me on both a subliminal and even a more obvious level that
sent enough signals to make sense of a possible future sexual relationship
between Duncan and Methos. I never saw another man *look* at Duncan the way
Methos did (when Duncan first came down those steps of Methos' apartment. I
wasn't expecting it - hadn't thought about it...and suddenly I was staring
at the screen saying "What was *that*!"....when Methos came into the Barge
with Joe in Finale *I* saw him look Duncan up and down as if he was his
favorite dessert...I could name numerous other instances, many to do with
trying to explain why Methos took the time and effort that he constantly did
with Duncan to keep him safe.
Liser: << Of course, I suppose that--strictly speaking-- once anyone puts
the first word of a piece of fic down on the screen it's in violation of
canon...>>
Yes, I agree. So we're not arguing that canon cannot be violated - just the
extent of that violation. I actually take great pains to keep my stories
consistent with the events that occurred in the Series but of course I
accept that I am also basing the stories on my own interpretations. My
challenge is to make my interpretation believable to my readers and in this
I succeed with some and I fail with some, as does any writer in any genre.
Liser: <<..Canon, IMO, is what you see on screen. And--on screen-we don't
see Duncan
lusting after Methos or vise-verse. We see two men who are friends
and have a pretty intense relationship. Looking beyond that to
subtext is fine if that's how you want to play the game, but it's not
canon. It could be--in another time, another place, another
movie/series/novel....but it's not within the context of the six
seasons we watched...>>
This is a complex argument just on its own. We didn't see many things on
film. Someone once said that we never saw Duncan go to the toilet or shower
or Tessa complain of PMT. I never saw Duncan eat certain foods or travel to
many places that fanfic has him travel to. The challenge is that we know
many many things occurred *off* screen and will continue to occur, in
Duncan's world, after Ep #119. If you are a writer who cares about
consistency you have to write these things that we never saw as believable.
If large sections of a readership agree with me and my interpretation, does
that make us all wrong or all right?? As we agreed above - we are all
violating canon - it just comes down to how far can we stretch it. A
non-slash reader is saying "You've stretched it too far for me." and that is
fine. I say the same thing about some slash and some het fanfiction as well.
i say it about any slashed Richie fanfic, for example. But there are many
readers of that genre of slash who don't agree with me and who read it.
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations :-)
Interestingly Peter does admit that both he and Adrian were very aware of
the homo-erotic content of the shared Quickening. When I was talking ot
Nadia Cameron in London recently she said that Adrian, as Director, actually
asked her and Lizzie to play up the Amanda/Rebecca relationship's bi-sexual
aspect. So I think that we can safely assume that the lead actors would not
be at all shocked to learn that viewers were seeing this sub-text and that
we were in fact, not having this view actively discouraged. (That is not to
say that any fictional depiction is fair game, by the way.) But it does
indicate that the leads and sometimes Director were aware of the complexity
of the characters and their age and the times they lived through and
presented enough of the sub-text to leave another rich layer of
interpretation there for those who wanted to pursue it.
I think that this is another of the interesting aspects of Immortality. As
an Immortal, woudl I be more daring - more bored - more exposed to different
experiences - less likely to be shocked as the ages wore on - more inclined
to start to use my own interpreation of legalities and morality? Yes I
would. I know that that doesn't mean that all Immortals would - but I acan
also see that the people I watched would also be so inclined. Living is
about learning. I can just hear someone say "Well - I never slept with a
warthog! Does that mean I'd eventually do that?" Well - I don't think that
I'm saying that Immortals lose all standards - just that they'd surely be
inclined to push their curretn standards a little beyond the envelope. And
some would push them a lot ;-0
Liser: <<..With all due respect, Carmel, I *hate* this argument. :-) It's
the
most common one people use to justify slashing Methos
and...well...sure...it MIGHT be the case. Or, it MIGHT be that
Methos has lived for 5000 years and never found himself interested in
having sex with anyone that didn't have a vagina....>>
Yes - i agree with you. This is a perfectly valid argument. There is no
proof whatsoever that Methos has the background that I suggested, nor that
he was ever involved in sex with anyone but women. But I am not saying that
he *did* have the background I suggested - just that in the context of my
arriving at a believable scenario then *I* can pose the hypothesis I did and
be staisfied that it is believable. Yes it is extrapolation and
circumstantial - I agree with all of the alternate scenario you painted as a
perfectly believable one for those who do not see what I see. But once you
*do* see what I see regarding Duncan and Methos then you believe that Methos
is bi-sexual and then you look for explanations of it and see whether they
might hold up. I would argue that my interpretation is a believable one
given the times Methos lived through and his age.
Liser: <<..What we're talking about here is Carmel-canon....not series
canon.
And that's fine and good for you. But please don't tell me that it
applies across the board. (Which I don't think you were trying
to--though that is a common trend in slash discussions.)...>>
Yes - it is Carmel!canon (I *like* that)....and you're right - I was never
suggesting that it was true or applied acorss the board. AS you say, I was
attttempting to expalin how *I* came to see the D/M subtext and how I
continue to see it. I accept completely that it is highly personal and was
attempting to answer the questions you posed.
Liser: <<..I can't speak for the Weasel, but, for me, it's always helpful to
my
level of understanding when someone takes the time to explain it
instead of getting indignant in the face of a question. ;-)..>>
Well - it can be pretty difficult to explain - but we owed poor Marina a bit
of a break :-)))
Egads! I *must* get to work -
Kind regards
@ Carmel Macpherson:
<<<@{}=================>>> Chief EDFWs
@ carmel@hldu.org
http://www.carmelmacpherson.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Highlander DownUnder: The Official HL Fan Club of Australia
PO Box 198, Brisbane Albert St QLD 4002, Australia.
OR, for US members, make out checks to Fran and send $US25 to: Fran Koerner
P. O. Box 3565, Palos Verdes, CA 90274
Visit the HLDU club site: http://www.hldu.org
***HLDU5. May 2003. Brisbane***
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 20:41:28 -0400
From: Karla Julian <julkm@home.com>
Subject: checking
I'm just checking to see if this message goes through. My email has been
bouncing. Sorry to inconvenience people.
By the way, does anyone from the New England area know of a station that
will be carrying Adrian's new series, Tracker?
:-)
Karla
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 20:44:05 -0400
From: "Carrie V. Key" <reeana1@home.com>
Subject: Re: checking
----- Original Message -----
From: Karla Julian <julkm@HOME.COM>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 8:41 PM
Subject: [HL] checking
> I'm just checking to see if this message goes through. My email has been
> bouncing. Sorry to inconvenience people.
> By the way, does anyone from the New England area know of a station that
> will be carrying Adrian's new series, Tracker?
> :-)
> Karla
Is there a site out there that lists where it's going to play in general?
---
Carrie Key
reeana1@home.com
vatazes@home.com
http://members.home.net/reeana1/my_domain.htm
http://members.home.net/vatazes/welcome.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/hornygurlz/index.htm
LadyReeana, Ana Vatazes, Javina Jinn,
PWFC, OFEB, QJEB, Clan of the Eternally Clueless,
Proud Owner of 'Oasis Bathing Ardeth' Clone #1
"Tas! You Doorknob!" Flint Fireforge, Dragonlance
"I came, I saw, I broke a hip." Johnny Bravo
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:10:21 -0700
From: Merrie Gail Foerster <damemehri@qwest.net>
Subject: Re: checking
The Adrian Paul, Tracker group on Yahoo:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/adrianpaul_tracker
is collecting the stations as they sign up. You are welcome to come
"Track" along with us.
Merrie Gail - Damemehri, WIW
List Bitch, Adrian Paul Tracker - "From the depths of space, he will
find you ...
Promises, promises...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/adrianpaul_tracker
Mehri's Mountain
http://www.dame-mehri.com/damemehri
Karla Julian wrote:
>
> I'm just checking to see if this message goes through. My email has been
> bouncing. Sorry to inconvenience people.
> By the way, does anyone from the New England area know of a station that
> will be carrying Adrian's new series, Tracker?
> :-)
> Karla
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:03:36 -0400
From: Karla Julian <julkm@home.com>
Subject: Re: Tracker
"Carrie V. Key" wrote:
>
>
> Is there a site out there that lists where it's going to play in general?
There is a website for Tracker. It is Trackertv.com. I don't think it lists
the stations yet but it has been picked up by the Chris Craft stations.
Whatever they are. I think WWOR in New York is one of them.
:-)
Karla
>
>
> ---
> Carrie Key
> reeana1@home.com
> vatazes@home.com
> http://members.home.net/reeana1/my_domain.htm
> http://members.home.net/vatazes/welcome.htm
> http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/hornygurlz/index.htm
> LadyReeana, Ana Vatazes, Javina Jinn,
> PWFC, OFEB, QJEB, Clan of the Eternally Clueless,
> Proud Owner of 'Oasis Bathing Ardeth' Clone #1
> "Tas! You Doorknob!" Flint Fireforge, Dragonlance
> "I came, I saw, I broke a hip." Johnny Bravo
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:07:37 -0400
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: More about Slash. Same Sex warning (was Re: K/S,
sociology and other stuff
I couldn't resist that Same Sex warning..it has been so long since we needed one.
Marina and I continue a 5+ year discussion on slash.( This is going to be long as I combine two posts.)
I said:
>>I'm not shocked by slash. I was, I admit, surprised the first time I ever
>>heard of it..mostly because I didn't "get" why anyone would want to see
>>the characters in question in that kind of relationship. It had simply
>>never occurred to me.
Marina said:
>Have you ever read any theories about it?
I have read many theories on why people like/write slash. And I have my own theories <eg>.
>>No wait....I *had* heard of Kirk/Spock many years ago...but I thought it
>>was done as a joke..a parody.
>Hey, some of that K/S is classic slash, man. <g> I love K/S, but you
>just can't find any good stuff on the Net. Only in zines. Which I was
>too young (and too broke) to buy at the time, so don't have. :(
Well...as usual..you have to buy the premise to buy the bit. I can easily accept that Kirk loves Spock...they have been through much together. I can't imagine Kirk being sexually attracted to Spock...not when the universe is filled with willing alien women. The plots might be excellent..the writing might be superb..but it will fail, for me, in the end because I don't buy Spock and Kirk as lovers.
>>After all these years, I certainly know that some people *do* like slash
>>(for many reasons) - many to the exclusion of any other kind of fanfic.
>That would be me. I don't read anything else. At all. (At least, fanfic-
>wise.)
This has always interested/bothered me. Assuming you meant fanfic of all fandoms (not just HL) I continue to wonder what it is about male/male pairings that you find so fascinating that no other relationship between any other characters in any other fandom interests you. There have been TV shows in the past where I thought there was an unspoken attraction between two of the male leads (of course, I can't think of one now off the top of my head). I would have read a fanfic where that aspect was examined...as well as stories where the on-screen or off-screen male/female pairings existed. If the relationship is interesting and rings true..I'm willing to give it a shot. It seems that you *only* find male/male relationships interesting. Can you, maybe, explain why (again) ?
>>Actually, fanfic in general, and slash in particular, presents an
>interesting sociological phenomena. Here we have a group of people who
>have decided that they want what they want regardless of its legality. Kinda like drugs and
>>prostitution <eg>
>And sociologists (and MIT professors) have written reams on the topic,
>too. They all came to different conclusions, of course. Comparing slash
>(or fanfic) to drugs and prostitution won't upset me, Wendy - I think
>both should be legalized.
Wasn't really trying to upset you <g> just trying to find some other activity that was illegal and which a fair number of people insisted is their right to engage in regardless of the law. Drugs and prostitution came to mind.
>- . (I know you've read slash, Wendy.) (I'm convinced you just
>haven't read the *right* slash.)
:-)
I can't imagine what the "right" slash would be...if, in the end, it slashed two characters which I didn't believe would reasonably become lovers. Frankly, I much prefer stories (fanfic and otherwise) with strong female characters in relationships with strong male characters. ( I suspect it has something to do with the way I happen to view male/female "politics" and with my real life experience in relationships.) I like "buddies" stories (starting with Butch and Sundance and including the "Lethal Weapon" type movies) I have no problem with stories involving gay characters..male or female. I am not opposed to sex in stories- het or gay. I just don't find that the vast majority of slash stories hold my interest , mostly because I can't make myself accept the characters as portrayed when they differ so much from what I saw on screen.That is why I see it as "character assassination" <g> Slash writers take perfectly good characters and change them so as to be radially different th!
!
an what was portrayed originally - not unlike TPTB taking Amanda's character in HL:TS and changing her into an unrecognizable creature in Raven.
Marina to Lisa:
>Aha! What *you* saw on the screen! I saw something that definitely
>supported the possibility. But all that tells us is that we have
>different perceptions, and so what? We can have them. Just as long
>as you don't tell me mine is less relevant than yours. (Even *Wendy*
>said there was a "look" in "Chivalry". Wendy!!)
I think what I've said is that *if* I were going to see any slashy behavior between Duncan and Methos, the "look" in "Chivalry" would be it. That's it. One look. ( A look that could be interpreted lots of ways.) That doesn't translate into a belief on my part that Methos and Duncan were destined to be lovers. Further, I have always been under the impression that many slashers (is that the right term?)(seems too violent) don't actually need any on-screen "evidence" or "perception" to work from...that any two male character were "fair game".
>Well, if we go by canon, then immortals don't go to the toilet
>either. (I'm sorry. I couldn't help it.)
No...we know Duncan pees<eg>
>Yeah, Richie is hard to slash. The Richie who lives in me doesn't like it.
>(I tried to slash him, and had a very hard time! <g>)
"Richie entered the apartment and tossed his wet coat toward the coat tree in the corner. Duncan approached, towel in hand. "Let me help you," Duncan offered with a sly gleam in his eye........."
>In fact, a large
>percentage of stories concern themselves with a character (or both
>characters) coming to terms with the idea that they have fallen in
>love with a person of the same gender. And characters do have
>heterosexual freak-outs and sudden attacks of 'what the hell am I
>doing?' and everything that a person might reasonably expect from
>a male character who never wanted another man before.
Ok..so those are all the "first time" stories. Methos silently longing..Duncan oblivious or resistant..then there is the freak snow storm that traps them in the cabin for a week and the "inevitable" happens ...usually all over the floor by the fireplace,<eg> Aren't those, in their own way, as repetitive and boring as the "where do Immortals come from" stories you dislike so much?
>Writing a slash story with characters that have previously been
>portrayed on TV as being heterosexual, and doing a convincing job
>of it, is a unique writing challenge. Consequently, most slash
>stories are very well written. (Even PWPs, although I don't like
>those that much.) And I like to read stuff that is well-written.
>I do not want to wade through Mary Sue stories disguised as
>adventures, or read the thousandth fan's idea of where Immortals
>come from. I want to read about characters and emotions. And
>slash is chock-full of character moments and emotion.
I wonder. I admit that I don't read every HL slash story that comes by and that I don't seek out slash in other fandoms. I have read some..some I found on my own..some that came recommended by others. I just don't see that it is any better written that het/gen fanfic..or that it concerns itself with characters and emotions any more than the run-of-the-mill het/gen story does.
First, as I said above, many many slash stories are "first time" stories..how previously "het" male character A comes to discover the joys of love and sex with another man, B. There are only so many ways this can occur and one reads the same ones over and over. Beating the hell out of A (or B) seems to be prevalent ...as does isolating A/B so that they have no choice but to deal with each other.The emotions involved are... stock. The A character will be strong and stubborn..the B character will be understanding and gentle. Passion will override inhibitions and lubricants will flow <eg>
Second, I remain convinced that much slash is just Mary Sue in disguise...after all , you can't accuse a female writer of writing a Mary Sue if all the characters are male! Never mind that most of the time the male characters act in totally "female" ways ....which ties into...
Third, the characterizations and emotions that slash is "chock-full of" are often alien to the characters as seen on screen and, worse (to my mind) alien to men in general. The male characters in slash most often seem to act the way women *wish* men would act in relationships with women. There are long emotional discussions of feelings..there are deep discussions of the future..there are caring little gestures ..there are supportive actions..restraint and patience and open expressions of admiration and love. Men don't act that way! Gay men don't act that way. Hell...most *women* don't act that way <EFG>
>>Even so. Even if Duncan was titillated by these stories....that
>>doesn't mean he and Methos would wind up in bed together.
>Maybe not... but in a slash story he'd be having a lot more fun. :)
I know you were joking..but...do you think that Duncan and Methos would be having any more "fun" than Duncan and, say, Amanda? Sex is, as they say, sex<g>. I comprehend that you find depictions of m/m sex more arousing than depictions of m/f sex..but I doubt that the actual participants are having more or less fun one way or the other.
Which brings me to another question. I've read a number of non-slash fanfics that had no sex in them at all. They were just stories..as many episodes of TV are just stories with no love interest in them. I can't remember ever reading a slash story that did not have at least one sex scene. Did I just get "lucky" or is there less slash fanfic that is asexual (if you know what I mean). Are there stories that have Fraser and Ray as an established couple where they solve a crime and *don't* have sex? Do you like those more, less, or the same as those that include sex scenes. Is it still considered slash if there is no sex... or is that considered some other type of fanfic?
Wendy ("Richie looked at Duncan and smiled. The Highlander was so transparent at times. "You can dry my back," Richie said as he stripped off his damp shirt. Duncan moved behind Richie, placing a hand on his shoulder. The heat of the younger man's skin aroused heat of a different kind in Duncan......")
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 15 Jul 2001 (#2001-202)
************************************************