HIGHLA-L Digest - 14 Jul 2001 - Special issue (#2001-197)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@LISTS.PSU.EDU)
Sat, 14 Jul 2001 19:00:37 -0400
There are 19 messages totalling 815 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. Morality (4)
2. K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers) (8)
3. Morality (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers) (2)
4. K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic
writers)
5. ATTN: All Fan Fic writers (3)
6. If you don't like it... (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 19:00:19 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Morality
Hmmmmmmmm. Didn't send this empty post. Must be my PC acting up.
John
*pictures Chicken laying back with a cigarette and muttering "Well, that
solves that mystery."
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@BTINTERNET.COM>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: [HL] Morality
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Dotiran@aol.com>
> To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 6:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [HL] Morality
>
>
> > In a message dated 7/14/2001 11:11:53 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> > Ashton7@aol.com writes:
> >
> >
> > > . Who decides which concept of morality is
> > > "right"?
> > >
> >
> > This reminds me of the old --which came first the chicken or the egg
> > --theory. If there is such a thing as "truth" or "right" then we stand
> > "under" it and are judged by *it*, we do not place ourselves "above"
*it*
> and
> > judge whether truth is truth.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 20:31:01 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za>
Subject: K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
I had to change the topic, otherwise I can't post anything. I
promised! <g>
Wendy wrote:
>>I think I've bemused you a lot, Wendy. :)
>Off and on <g> But that's what makes you interesting.
:)
>I'm not shocked by slash. I was, I admit, surprised the first time I ever
>heard of it..mostly because I didn't "get" why anyone would want to see
>the characters in question in that kind of relationship. It had simply
>never occurred to me.
Have you ever read any theories about it? There are lots (no two exactly
the same) floating around the Net. (I have one on my slash page.) But
I think, basically, people like it for different reasons. As someone
else just quote recently, "For people who like this sort of thing, this
is the sort of thing that they'd like." (Or something.)
>No wait....I *had* heard of Kirk/Spock many years ago...but I thought it
>was done as a joke..a parody.
Hey, some of that K/S is classic slash, man. <g> I love K/S, but you
just can't find any good stuff on the Net. Only in zines. Which I was
too young (and too broke) to buy at the time, so don't have. :(
>After all these years, I certainly know that some people *do* like slash
>(for many reasons) - many to the exclusion of any other kind of fanfic.
That would be me. I don't read anything else. At all. (At least, fanfic-
wise.)
>I also know that some people find it very offensive.
Bad luck they're having. If I don't like something... I ignore it. I
hit delete. They can too. Slash zines or URLs don't follow people
around yelling, "Read me, read me!"
>And, to be honest <g>, I still don't "get" it . I understand on an
>intellectual level, still don't comprehend the attraction on a gut level.
>But then, I don't "get" how anyone can like liver and onions, either.
That's what it always comes down to, isn't it? We like what we like.
Why do I like purple? Why do I hate spinach? Who knows?
>I can think of one HL actor who was totally thrown off guard by the
>discovery of slash..and he wasn't any 18 year old kid.
Who? Who?? (You can tell me - it won't affect my slashy-fan-ness one bit.)
>Kronos and Val could be twins.
So could Kronos and the guy from the Raven ep. <g> Imagine how
freaked Val could be if someone slashed them. (And it's been done
with different characters played by the same actor.)
>No one pictures Duncan as 5' 7" stoop-shouldered and blonde.
Well, you never know. I know of people who read slash for shows they've
never seen.
>Actually, fanfic in general, and slash in particular, presents an
interesting >sociological phenomena. Here we have a group of people who
have decided that
>they want what they want regardless of its legality. Kinda like drugs and
>prostitution <eg>
And sociologists (and MIT professors) have written reams on the topic,
too. They all came to different conclusions, of course. Comparing slash
(or fanfic) to drugs and prostitution won't upset me, Wendy - I think
both should be legalized. (I live in South Africa, of course, where
sexual orientation is protected by the Constitution, and those other
things are continually being discussed regarding legalization or not.)
- Marina. (I know you've read slash, Wendy.) (I'm convinced you just
haven't read the *right* slash.)
\ "But then, we saw that Obi-Wan doth look upon ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// Qui-Gon with lust, and that Mr. Lucas was not || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ likely to include that in the next movie, so we ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// said screw it and wrote it ourselves." - Warning || \\
\\ page of the 'Master & Apprentice' slash site || //
//==fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za=Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==\\
I want to go back to my home planet - if someone would please tell
me where it is! - Tarryn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 14:50:08 -0400
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
Wendy re slash:
> >I also know that some people find it very offensive.
Marina:
>Bad luck they're having. If I don't like something... I ignore it. I
>hit delete. They can too. Slash zines or URLs don't follow people
>around yelling, "Read me, read me!"
But I think you (and a few others) are misreading what Wendy is saying. As
I see it, the people who don't like slash can be split into 2 groups. Most
people who don't like slash do exactly what you said. They just don't read
it. They hit the delete button. I'll call them Group A cuz I think that's
the larger of the two groups. They don't pontificate about the horrors of
slash, but they have an opinion and are entitled to express it in
discussions about slash without being jumped on. Then there is Group B
which consists of people who don't like slash and who feel that no one
should like it, write it, or read it.
I think the problem is that both groups always get the same response from
slash writers/readers/likers/lovers. The two groups aren't saying the same
thing, and the responses to them should reflect that.
IMHO.
-- Sandy
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 11:49:49 -0700
From: Lynn <lloschin@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
From: "Marina Bailey" <fdd-tmar@NETACTIVE.CO.ZA>
> >I can think of one HL actor who was totally thrown off guard by the
> >discovery of slash..and he wasn't any 18 year old kid.
>
> Who? Who?? (You can tell me - it won't affect my slashy-fan-ness one
bit.)
No big secret here that Valentine Pelka was quite unhappy. He is a
very religious and conservative person.
And, of course, he'd never have been the wiser if some idiot "fan"
hadn't asked him about it during a Q&A.
Lynn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 14:51:58 -0400
From: "Terry L. Howard" <howardtl@muohio.edu>
Subject: Re: Morality (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
At 11:18 AM 7/14/2001, John you wrote:
>if you do something you know to be dangerous, you must be prepared to live
>with physical pain
Here, IMHO, you have made it too simply. Example: I'm a motorcycle
rider/racer or just about any hobby with danger and I have an accident and
become confined to a bed. The question now become not if I'm willing to
live with the physical pain, but who will pay to keep me alive if haven't
taken the time to get insurance. ( And I have over 30 years riding
motorcycles and racing bikes and cars, but I have always had coverage.)
>if you do something you know will cause others pain, you must deal with
>their hurt and reaction
>if you do something you know to be controversial, you must deal with/expect
>diverse reactions
>
>AS long as you realise that consequences are not just how YOU react, but how
>others react or pay for your actions (and how your country/society
>implements the rules regarding this), then most people's moral codes are
>pretty much in unison.
>
>In other words: do as you would be done by. Not so much of a 'Can I do this
>(and not be punished)?' society, but a 'Should I do this?'
>
>Of course, that''ll screw the lawyers.
>
>John
Terry L. Howard
MCIS Network Operation Center
113 Hoyt Hall
"I had a great idea this morning, but I didn't like it."
- movie mogul Samuel Goldwyn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 19:54:16 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: K/S,
sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
Yup. I remember that at Chronicles. I believe that this would be the same
person who used the Anaheim Q&A with Jim Byrnes to tell JB that she was also
a musician and would like to jam with him at the concert that night......
Which just goes to show that there ISN'T a time and a purpose for every
purpose under heaven.
;)
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn" <lloschin@sprynet.com>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [HL] K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic
writers)
> From: "Marina Bailey" <fdd-tmar@NETACTIVE.CO.ZA>
>
> > >I can think of one HL actor who was totally thrown off guard by the
> > >discovery of slash..and he wasn't any 18 year old kid.
> >
> > Who? Who?? (You can tell me - it won't affect my slashy-fan-ness one
> bit.)
>
> No big secret here that Valentine Pelka was quite unhappy. He is a
> very religious and conservative person.
>
> And, of course, he'd never have been the wiser if some idiot "fan"
> hadn't asked him about it during a Q&A.
>
> Lynn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 19:59:48 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Morality (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
> Here, IMHO, you have made it too simply. Example: I'm a motorcycle
> rider/racer or just about any hobby with danger and I have an accident and
> become confined to a bed. The question now become not if I'm willing to
> live with the physical pain, but who will pay to keep me alive if haven't
> taken the time to get insurance. ( And I have over 30 years riding
> motorcycles and racing bikes and cars, but I have always had coverage.)
> Terry L. Howard
Think I covered that, though not as specific example. It would fit thus:
a) You take responsibility for yourself when you get on the motorbike and
b) you'd be (or should be) morally, legally, and financially responsible for
the consequences on others by you not having insurance when you crashed.
John
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:15:08 EDT
From: Dotiran@aol.com
Subject: Re: K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
In a message dated 7/14/2001 1:50:09 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
lloschin@sprynet.com writes:
> No big secret here that Valentine Pelka was quite unhappy. He is a
> very religious and conservative person.
>
Yep.Was seen at Mass and Communion during the Con in Anaheim :)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 09:15:56 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
me before--
> >Ok, so speaketh Lynn.
Lynn --
> Okay, I guess I'm lying, since you say so. Whatever.
No, that would have been--
OK, so prevaricateth Lynn.
Lynn--
> Sure it does. He told me he knows what's posted on the boards,
> in fact, he knew about specific discussions on individual boards.
Still doesn't help w/ the original point (assuming there really was one, I
think Carmel brought it up) of WHAT BP REALLY THINKS/FEELS about
fanfic/slash.
And, so, maybe BP knows the fanfic forum exists, but why does it exist &
what use does DPP make of it? You say you doubt BP actually reads the stuff
posted, so I picture this poor minion reading, taking notes, drawing
diagrams for the various positions used, erasing, trying to make sense of
those positions again, giving up, & turning in his efforts to BP at the end
of the day....
> Yes, we have several common-sense limitations that we hope will
> make the experience better for everyone.
Except the people who want to ask the no-no questions, of course.
> It's posted on the web site, but the answer is no, it's not allowed,
> nor has it been allowed at any convention I'm aware of in the
> past few years.
Thank you.
> My experience from being
> on the staff at a number of conventions and from attending many
> others is that questions about fanfic are not welcome by at least
> some of the guests, and like questions about the guests' personal
> lives, are best avoided.
Wonder why that is....especially if DPP is so very open to it all that it
hosts a forum for it.
So, fanfic/slash is so shameful, that it cannot even be mentioned in public
to people rather intimately involved in it all, but it's OK to write &
distibute it in the most public way imaginable--the Internet???
Lynn--
>>>Sheesh -- so there is only *one* morally right way (which I'm guessing
is yours) and anyone who doesn't abide by those moral principles is
inherently immoral? Nice concept... I bet the Taliban would heartily agree.
(And one with which I bet Duncan MacLeod would, fortunately, disagree.)>>>
You'd be wrong, again.
DM believed in a moral compass, that some things are morally right & others
morally wrong. And he acted on that belief. We may all quibble on what
goes in which category & what if anything should be done about violations,
but right & wrong, good & evil DO exist in the HL universe. Just as they do
in the real one.
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:17:27 -0400
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
I said:
><< I don't see that being an actor somehow takes away your right to be
>upset at slash involving a character you have portrayed. Does being "in the
>business" suddenly remove all your personal feelings and beliefs? >>
Annie:
>Well, no. Who said that it does? They have a right to feel anyway they want
>to about it.
Well, several people posted that, basically, actors were 1) public figures with, apparently, no rights and/or 2) big boys that should just grow up and chill. I was merely suggesting that actors still retain individual feelings about a whole range of subjects.
> The question was whether or not the fans writing it should
>then feel obligated to *stop* writing it just because the actor is bothered by
>it.
I don't know that I would use the word "obligated". I would see it more as the writer feeling some empathy for the actor and maybe (or maybe not) deciding to act on it. It's a question of what happens when one person's feeling are impacted by the actions of another person...everyone will have a different comfort level. Some people would not bother to consider the actor's feelings at all..some would weigh those feelings against their own enjoyment of writing slash and decide to continue, some would weigh them and decide to stop. I can, I suppose, understand deciding that one's own enjoyment is more important than another's discomforture..I have trouble with the idea of dismissing the other's feelings out-of-hand.
>There are a lot of people bothered by slash who *aren't* actors. They just
>don't like it or they just don't like that homosexuality exists (much less
>gets written about) or they don't like fan fiction or whatever. Should the
>writers thus stop writing slash (or any fan fiction) because someone out
>there might be "bothered" by it? Why? The people who don't like it *don't
>have to read it*. If you don't like a TV show, turn it off. If you don't
>like a book, put it down. If you don't like a movie, leave the theater.
The difference, in my mind, is that of a general dislike of a genre...and a particular dislike of being dragged into that genre. An actor may have no negative feels toward real-life homosexuality/homosexuals and yet not like to see "his" character slashed, can't he? The same actor might object to fanfic that involved his character in some of the more exotic "straight" sexual situations ... or might object to his character being written as a loathsome evil bastard as opposed to the nice guy the character was on-screen. As an actor, Tom Hanks might love evil bastard roles but not wish to see Forest Gump set fire to a kitten while raping a 12 year old girl.
I agree that no one is forced to read slash..no one is forced to go to movies or watch TV. That does not necessarily negate a person's feelings about what is happening - even if one isn't watching. And this whole discussion - beyond the legal issue- is about feelings. Does one self-censor in response to another person's feelings or not? Under what situations, if any? As I understand it, the fanfic/slash community here represented seems to be saying that no one's feelings outweigh their own in any situation - that there are no situations short of threat of direct serious legal action that would cause you (a general "you") to stop writing slash.
> I was surprised
>that the slash existed but it certainly *never* occurred to me that I was
>entitled to some kind of moral outrage and indignation over its existence,
>and certainly not on behalf of the actors.
I have no moral outrage over slash. I tend to see it as character assassination <eg> but I'm not outraged. And I am not outraged "on behalf" of the actors. If they aren't outraged for themselves, I am not outraged for them. I thought the issue was what happened in those ( few ) situations when the actors *are* outraged on their own behalf...does the fanfic writer have *any* obligation to the actors whose characters are being written about. I take it the answer is a resounding "no".
Wendy(Not a 100% believer in the concept of "if you don't like it, don't look".)
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:30:53 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Morality
In a message dated 7/14/01 1:43:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Dotiran@aol.com
writes:
<< This reminds me of the old --which came first the chicken or the egg
--theory. If there is such a thing as "truth" or "right" then we stand
"under" it and are judged by *it*, we do not place ourselves "above" *it* and
judge whether truth is truth. >>
And, as Highlander often showed us, there *is* no black or white in our
lives. There are only shades of grey. That was the point of a good many
episodes and there was more than one character that was used to bring this
point home. Methos was one of many.
Personally, I don't consider myself judged by any sort of universal "truth"
or "right." I happen to believe in the concept of karma and I believe that we
all judge ourselves, in the end. The only thing in life that is guaranteed to
drive me postal is when another person thinks they have a right and an
obligation to worry about *my* eternal soul or whatever. I can live with
myself and my beliefs quite well and I hope for the same contentment for
others. If there truly is one univeral truth or right, none of us mere
mortals have been privileged to find concrete proof of its existence, that's
for sure. I highly doubt that if it exists and someone does prove it, that
there will be an admonition written there in the universal stars saying that
fan fiction is evil and writers must immediately stop writing it if it
bothers the sensibilities of any of the actors who played one of the
characters in their stories. ;-)
Annie CWPack
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:39:55 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
In a message dated 7/14/01 2:50:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lloschin@sprynet.com writes:
<< No big secret here that Valentine Pelka was quite unhappy. He is a
very religious and conservative person.
And, of course, he'd never have been the wiser if some idiot "fan"
hadn't asked him about it during a Q&A. >>
When I was at the cast and crew dinner at Anaheim, that little incident from
Chronicles was fresh in Valentine's mind. He was crouched down between me and
another fan after dinner having a chat with us and he talked a little about
it. Chronicles had been, of course, his first convention and Anaheim was only
his 2nd (and it was only a few weeks later, I believe). He didn't seem
particularly freaked out about it. He just said that he didn't see the
character he had played that way (or the character of Methos in connection to
Kronos) and it startled him. He was obviously very taken aback by the very
thought that something he had put into the role might have given that
interpretation, I suppose. But, he also said that he had no problem with the
thought of homosexuality, even between the characters... he just wanted it
clear that if the fans thought about it that way, it was in *their* minds and
not what was intended to be portrayed *on the screen*. I think that most fans
"get" that concept, even the ones who love slash the most. Val was new to
fandom at that point and I doubt that he could have understood. Perhaps he
still doesn't... I don't know because I certainly never brought it up to him
again (I didn't in the first place... *he* brought it up in the course of our
conversation when he was describing his first convention appearance). As Lynn
said, if people had used a little common sense and discretion, Val probably
wouldn't have been so flummoxed.
Annie CWPack
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 21:39:15 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
Lynn:
> > Yes, we have several common-sense limitations that we hope will
> > make the experience better for everyone.
Nina:
> Except the people who want to ask the no-no questions, of course.
Making the assumption that there aren't any guests attending the Reunion Con
who will be mortally offended by the LACK of slash questions, then who cares
about the people who would want to ask slash questions knowing that some
guests WILL be offended and who now can't? That would be selfish on their
part.
Again, not just slash, but any sub-genre or subject that various guests
might feel uncomfortable with. ie: some Cons would state that questions
about the the private lives of guests are equally out of bounds. Is someone
entitled to be pissed when they are told that they can't ask the question
"Is it true you were boffing Tam Cruz'z wife?".
No. Cons have to set rules, often at the request of the actors. You don't
like the rules, you don't go to the Con... the same as deciding whether or
not you read a post or not. No-one forces anyone to follow their
rules/decisions. They are simply saying "If you attend the event I've
organised following my code of conduct, you follow that code. I'm not
infringing your right because you CAN choose not to come" I have the same
choice to make about attending any Con I choose to or not.
As a Con organiser myself, I know you have to cater for the majority and use
common sense. So far I think Lynn is doing a great job. Anyone who doesn't
agree, doesn't have to turn up.
John
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:41:11 EDT
From: Dotiran@aol.com
Subject: Re: Morality
In a message dated 7/14/2001 2:31:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Ashton7@aol.com writes:
> Personally, I don't consider myself judged by any sort of universal "truth"
>
Then we better hope you are right :)
For a good discussion of the philosophical principle involved here I recommend
After Virtue by Alidstar MacLain
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 18:12:50 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Morality
In a message dated 7/14/01 4:41:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Dotiran@aol.com
writes:
<< > Personally, I don't consider myself judged by any sort of universal
"truth"
>
Then we better hope you are right :)
>>
Actually, no. The only person who has to worry about whether or not I am
"right" is *me*. And that suits me just fine. I don't need anyone else to
bother their head over whether or not my version of reality, morality and
truth fits theirs. Thanks for the thought, though. ;-)
Annie CWPack
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 00:54:54 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za>
Subject: Re: K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
Sandy wrote:
>But I think you (and a few others) are misreading what Wendy is saying. As
>I see it, the people who don't like slash can be split into 2 groups. Most
>people who don't like slash do exactly what you said. They just don't read
>it. They hit the delete button. I'll call them Group A [snip]
>Then there is Group B which consists of people who don't like slash and
>who feel that no one should like it, write it, or read it.
>I think the problem is that both groups always get the same response from
>slash writers/readers/likers/lovers.
I'm with you on that, Sandy. But it's easy to get them confused, because
a lot of people simply state that they don't like slash, and a lot of
fans (myself included) are so used to being told that we shouldn't like
it, write it or read it that we assume that people who say they don't
like slash are trying to make us stop writing/reading/liking it.
Which of course says a lot about that assumption, but it's an easy one
to make after you've had scores of people telling you how disgusting
slash is and how perverted you are.
However, I know for a fact that Wendy doesn't like slash on other
grounds. So I feel I can argue with her about it.
Does that make sense?
- Marina.
\ "But then, we saw that Obi-Wan doth look upon ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// Qui-Gon with lust, and that Mr. Lucas was not || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ likely to include that in the next movie, so we ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// said screw it and wrote it ourselves." - Warning || \\
\\ page of the 'Master & Apprentice' slash site || //
//==fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za=Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==\\
I want to go back to my home planet - if someone would please tell
me where it is! - Tarryn
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 00:54:56 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za>
Subject: Re: K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
Annie wrote:
>[Valentine Pelka] also said that he had no problem with the
>thought of homosexuality, even between the characters... he just wanted it
>clear that if the fans thought about it that way, it was in *their* minds and
>not what was intended to be portrayed *on the screen*. I think that most fans
>"get" that concept, even the ones who love slash the most.
Exactly! That's it! Slash fans *know* that slash is in the eye of
the beholder. Which of course brings us to any work - do we need to
be guided only by what the writer/actor says he *intended*, or can
we read things into it from our own perspective? I find this a
fascinating topic. I tend to argue that a work stands on its own
and what a reader/viewer gets from it is what they get from it.
So if I watch "Comes a Horseman" and "Revelation 6:8" and think that
Kronos and Methos were doing it back in the bronze age, that's what
*I* get out of it. (I don't think that, BTW. Duncan and Methos, OTOH...)
And it doesn't matter what VP intended by his portrayal... because
until today I had no idea what VP intended. Most fans have no idea
what the actors *intend*. We can only go by what is up there on the
screen (or page). Our interpretation is our own. And I could (but I
won't, 'cause it's 1 a.m.) argue that slash is no more or less valid
an interpretation of a work... just a different one.
- Marina. (Ah, lovely flashbacks to Aesthetics seminars at university.)
\ "But then, we saw that Obi-Wan doth look upon ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// Qui-Gon with lust, and that Mr. Lucas was not || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ likely to include that in the next movie, so we ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// said screw it and wrote it ourselves." - Warning || \\
\\ page of the 'Master & Apprentice' slash site || //
//==fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za=Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==\\
I want to go back to my home planet - if someone would please tell
me where it is! - Tarryn
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 00:54:55 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za>
Subject: Re: K/S, sociology and other stuff (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
Lynn wrote:
>No big secret here that Valentine Pelka was quite unhappy. He is a
>very religious and conservative person.
Ag, shame! (Said in a sympathetic tone of voice - I'm not trying to
be sarcastic.) I think it must be jarring for an actor to come across
it at a con. A lot of people who've never heard of slash go, "Huh?!"
the first time - but luckily for them they're out of the spotlight so
they can freak out (or drool) in peace.
>And, of course, he'd never have been the wiser if some idiot "fan"
>hadn't asked him about it during a Q&A.
Someone else said (and it might not be the case here) that it's often
the slash-haters who bring it up. WHY would they do that?? In the
hope that the actor will be shocked and disassociate himself from
the slash fans? I think HL in general lucked out because Peter thinks
it's amusing, at least. (Well, he's British. The British have been
showing and mentioning gay people long before the U.S. 'The Professionals'
was doing it in the '70s. And no, I don't mean Bodie and Doyle, yeek.)
I remember someone talking about how David Gerrold (I think) was
disgusted by slash and persisted in holding up slashy pictures (or was
it reading from slashy zines, something like that) at conventions
despite pleas from fans that they didn't want it discussed, and that
there were children present. Somehow, I don't think he got much sympathy
for his 'cause' that way.
- Marina. (I do not think The Professionals is slashy.) (I'm the only
slash fan in the world who doesn't.)
\ "But then, we saw that Obi-Wan doth look upon ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// Qui-Gon with lust, and that Mr. Lucas was not || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ likely to include that in the next movie, so we ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// said screw it and wrote it ourselves." - Warning || \\
\\ page of the 'Master & Apprentice' slash site || //
//==fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za=Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==\\
I want to go back to my home planet - if someone would please tell
me where it is! - Tarryn
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 01:01:19 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za>
Subject: If you don't like it... (Was: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
Wendy wrote:
>(Not a 100% believer in the concept of "if you don't like it, don't look".)
Could you explain that a bit more? Cause I don't think I get it.
I dislike karate movies (not kung fu, I like kung fu <g>). I won't hire
them from video shops. I won't watch them when they come on TV. I ignore
people who tell me how good they are and that I just "have to watch this
new one".
I don't like them, so I don't look.
What is the difference between that and slash? Because slash is always
labelled, complete with warnings. A person cannot read slash by
accident. Just like, if I pick up a movie that shows Chuck Norris in
white, I know not to hire it, because it's probably a karate movie.
(Not that I have anything against Chuck, or karate per se, you
understand.)
- Marina.
\ "But then, we saw that Obi-Wan doth look upon ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// Qui-Gon with lust, and that Mr. Lucas was not || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ likely to include that in the next movie, so we ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// said screw it and wrote it ourselves." - Warning || \\
\\ page of the 'Master & Apprentice' slash site || //
//==fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za=Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==\\
I want to go back to my home planet - if someone would please tell
me where it is! - Tarryn
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 14 Jul 2001 - Special issue (#2001-197)
****************************************************************