There are 10 messages totalling 411 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. ATTN: All Fan Fic writers (6) 2. Berne Convention, Copyright, fair use and moral rights 3. further OT..was O/T: List mommy's e-mail address? 4. : ATTN: All Fan Fic writers 5. Jim Byrnes Show ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:32:08 +0100 From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers Lisa K takes on Marina > Marina says: > > > I never said that not liking slash made you homophobic. I said that > > pontificating about slash being disgusting, and more immoral than > > the rest of fanfic, made someone with that opinion homophobic. > > Well, actually, what you said was (from previous response to Nina): > > Nina: > >That doesn't mean that people > >who dislike slash are homophobic. > > You: > Ri-ight. > > Me, now: I must admit that this sounds an awful lot like you're saying that > people who don't like slash are homophobic. I do realize that the conversation > from which this exchange came also included discussion about slash fanfic being > singled out, and that other aspects of the whole discussion may have affected > your response, but if your point was as you elaborate above, I don't think that's > clear from the text. > I have a couple of gay friends who find slashfic - especially slash written by straight women - to be (in their words) "prurient and disgusting". I guess they're homophobic, huh? ;-) Jette Glory may be fleeting, but obscurity is forever! bosslady@scotlandmail.com http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:25:22 +0100 From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers Marina > Okay, I lied. <g> John just always brings up interesting points. > (Where ARE you, BTW? Because in the States it's only... 4 a.m. and > that's in NY. Who is awake at 4 a.m.?) John's in England, UK, Marina. Thought everyone knew that ;-) Jette Glory may be fleeting, but obscurity is forever! bosslady@scotlandmail.com http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:28:16 +0100 From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers > Unfortunately, these days fandom is filled with idiots. I mean, > when rubbish like Star Trek Voyager has fans, that's it, really. and no doubt the ST:Voy fans would say "when rubbish like that Highlander has fans, well, the world has gone to hell in a handbasket" Different strokes, Marina. You keep arguing for that in relation to your fondness for slashfic, accord other people the same curtesy in regard to their viewing. Jette (enjoyes Voyager from time to time) Glory may be fleeting, but obscurity is forever! bosslady@scotlandmail.com http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:56:51 -0400 From: Dragon Lady <dragonlady@darkmage.net> Subject: Berne Convention, Copyright, fair use and moral rights Just thought some may be interested in reading what the Berne Convention says about the protection of "Literary and Artistic Works" : http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/overview.html I found this interesting: BERNE CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF LITERARY AND ARTISTIC WORKS (Paris Text 1971) Moral Rights -- Article 6bis (1) Independently of the author's economic rights, and even after the transfer of the said rights, the author shall have the right to claim authorship of the work and to object to any distortion, mutilation or other modification of, or other derogatory action in relation to, the said work, which would be prejudicial to his honor or reputation. And here's a good roundup of information and materials on Copyright & Fair Use: http://fairuse.stanford.edu/ And yes, The Mitchell Estate has lost the injunction ruling battle (for now) for the "Gone with the Wind" parody ... but I'm sure the war is far from over. --DL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:26:30 -1000 From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net> Subject: Re: further OT..was O/T: List mommy's e-mail address? mouse-- > When did lists become run by mommy and daddy? Probably when so many list members acted like children. Nina geiger@maui.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:50:16 -0400 From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers At 06:32 PM 07/10/2001 +0100, Jette Goldie wrote: >I have a couple of gay friends who find slashfic - especially >slash written by straight women - to be (in their words) >"prurient and disgusting". > >I guess they're homophobic, huh? ;-) ROFLMBO!!! Thanks for that one Jette! -- Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:07:01 +0200 From: Marina Bailey <fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za> Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers Jette wrote: >I have a couple of gay friends who find slashfic - especially >slash written by straight women - to be (in their words) >"prurient and disgusting". >I guess they're homophobic, huh? ;-) You don't really want me to answer that, do you? :) :) I have gay friends who just roll their eyes at it. And then give me pointers for my next story. (To say nothing of arriving at my house with gay porn and instructions to watch it forthwith.) (Oops... was that too much information?) - Marina. (I had one post left, and this is it.) (I *thought* John was in England, but you could not tell from his email address.) (You'd be amazed at how many people think .za stands for Zambia or Zaire.) (At least they got the right continent.) \\ "You can spend precious time marching in your ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> // // perfect lines, but I don't hear that drum; I'm || R I C H I E >> \\ \\ looking for something else. And if you don't ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> // //like what you see, you don't have to look at me."|| \\ \\==fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za=Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==// "Cultural artifacts always come alive and take over the ship." - My brother, watching Star Trek Voyager. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:37:09 -1000 From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net> Subject: Re: : ATTN: All Fan Fic writers Carrie-- > Simply distributing fan fic weather it be > e-mail, website or whatever is not illegal so long as money is not being > made w/o permission of the owner of the copyright. Please, correct me if I'm > wrong, but that is my understanding of it. Ok, you are wrong. Violating someone's ownership rights is a separate issue from making money out of it. Either way, the violator is in the wrong, legally & morally; unless money is at stake, it may well not be worthwhile for the violated to DO anything about it. But, not being caught is not the same thing as being in the right. >>>Ok, I'm a big girl here, so I will admit that I did read that post wrong. My apologies. I went and re-read what Nina had written.>>> Thanks. >>>But I have a question to what she meant by "And, I also think ALL fans are punished for fanfic writers' selfishexcesses, just as we are ALL punished when TPTB, actors, etc. react reasonably to things like stalkers." When have we been punished due to fan fic? I don't recall ever hearing anything about that. I'm curious to know.>>> AP can't know WHICH fan is a stalking fanatic & so (very reasonably) at cons & such may keep everyone at a distance; given his experiences, occasionally he's got to wonder when he deals w/ his fans--"Is _she_ gonna threaten my family?" And, so we are ALL punished by the excesses of a few loons--just by having that (very reasonable) suspicion intrude. In the same way, TPTB can't know WHICH fan is a writer possibly planning to use their universe w/o permission & so may keep fans at a distance & regard us ALL w/ some suspicion. And, those actors who don't like what they've seen done to their characters/themselves in fanfic are also going to remember that when dealing w/ ALL fans &, again, it can color everything, for everyone. Maybe even assuming we've mostly all READ net-distributed fanfic that offended them could be off-putting. Maybe to the point that they don't attend cons, or if they do the Q&A sessions are restricted, etc. So, I do think the excesses of the relatively few fanfic writers who widely distribute their work can impact the majority of fans negatively. Jo-- >>>I'm sure the Mitchell Trusts, owners of the copyright on 'Gone with the Wind' would love to hear this if it were true, given that they just lost an injunction to stop the publication of a book that did just this. A parody, that uses someone else's character and plot and idea, is fully protected under Fair Use. Fair Use, as it applies to fan fiction, has never been tested in court. Until it has your view, that fan fiction is not covered by fair use, is no more or less valid than mine, that it is.>>> That has nothing to do w/ what we're talking about. Fanfic isn't parody (unless the sheer crappy quality of 90% of fanfic makes it laughable enough, & since most fanfic is deadly serious about itself, it just isn't parody regardless). Fanfic is rooted so firmly in the stolen universe that "fair use" would be an enormous stretch. It certainly hasn't been interpreted that way to date, & I'm not aware of any reason to think it ever will be; if it were, then very, very little material would be protected, & I don't see property rights law going in that direction any time soon. Leah responds in character to Marina-- (Marina)>>>And I'm not disagreeing with you in the least! I'm really just fighting with Nina because it's fun. :)>>> (Leah)>>>For awhile, but it gets predictable really quickly. Some fight simply to watch the ripples they make, not the points. I stopped opening her posts many months back and find this list ever so much better.>>> Pleasant as always, Leah. Maybe if you read stuff (or could admit to doing so) from the people who disagree w/ you, you'd learn something. Like not egregiously violating copyright, in a discussion about copyright violations, for instance. I do TRY to read your stuff, Leah, but I confess that I'm not always successful at wading through it. Nina geiger@maui.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 20:01:11 -0400 From: Johanne Briere <jojoann@videotron.ca> Subject: Jim Byrnes Show Bonsoir tout le monde, September 98 , a few different group of people visited Vancouver. Part of their stay was to assist to the taping of the Jim Byrnes Show. Four differents shows were taped on the day we headed to the studio at the CBC. If these shows airs in order, you can see them on the Canadian Bravo Network. Tonight was one of them, rerunning tomorrow morning 8 am (Eastern Time). They air on Tuesday night 7:30 pm, rerun the following morning at 8. If your cable service does not provide Canadian Bravo Network, you should phone them to get it and while you are at it - ask them for Space as well. You will get HL three times a days, in order, complete , uncut. :) Else find a Canadian friend , @+, JoAnne jojoann@videotron.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:16:42 -1000 From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net> Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers John-- > Some writers write because...the alternative is unthinkable. Yes, but if what they write is fanfic, they have no right to distribute it. To most professional writers, I would think that writing & distributing w/o permission material based in a universe created by _other_ writers would be truly unthinkable. Marina-- > Nita wrote: Actually, it's Nina. Marina-- > But why would they look for it in the first place? (My conscience > doesn't need soothing, thanks.) They'd still have to go to a search > engine and type in keywords, etc. And that isn't always a guarantee > that the right thing will pop up in the search first time. What > search engine do you use, that you look for Highlander and find > slash? Cause I wanna get that one!! Search ANYPLACE for "Highlander" & you'll get a slew of fan sites; many host fanfic, & a lot of those include slash. Want to cut it down to mere seconds? Search for "Highlander + fanfic," "Highlander + slash," etc. This really isn't difficult, & I'm pretty sure even a fandom-novice TV exec could figure out how to locate fanfic quickly & easily on the Internet--thanks to fanfic authors being so quick to distribute that way. > Who's stealing anything? Any idiot knows that the HL (or Star Trek > or whatever) universe doesn't belong to the fanfic writer. Including > the fanfic writer herself. Exactly. So, where's the right to take someone else's intellectual property w/o permission & use it for your own purposes? To not only write fanfic--fine--but to widely distribute it--not fine. OTHER THAN--because you want to, & it's fun? > We're all always punished for anything idiots do. I don't see how > the excesses of a few people should mean that everyone else has to > suffer. Um--that's MY point, & you're in that "excesses" category, according to what you've posted here lately. > We try to keep fanfic underground > so that TPTB can pretend they don't know. But, if you don't want TPTB to "officially" know you are doing it, it must be a bad thing. And if it's a bad thing, why keep doing it? OTHER THAN--because you want to, & it's fun? Most things that hide under rocks are pretty nasty. me before-- > >Slash is an extreme form of fanfic, so reactions to it are likely to be > >extreme. It will therefore be singled out. That doesn't mean that people > >who dislike slash are homophobic. Marina-- > Ri-ight. That's it. I'm really tired of trying to have a discussion w/ you, when all you do is spout flip nonsense & not-so-veiled insults. Your stated view boils down to--you know distributing fanfic is wrong, you don't care, & you will continue to do whatever you want no matter who it harms because it's fun for you. Well, kindergartens are full of people w/ that attitude. So are prisons. Nina geiger@maui.net ------------------------------ End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 10 Jul 2001 (#2001-189) ************************************************